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Second_in_pie said:
Certainly not. There are plenty of white Canadians that think the exact same thing. And anyways, that's seriously discriminating against certain groups simply based on the country they're from, as well as political discrimination. Indian and Arabian culture is just more conservative than Chinese or European.
If you don't want having a bunch of hicks in the country (including the once that we've had living here for generations,) we should instead educate them properly and show what's good about 21st century values. But discrimination is unacceptable.
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You believe that tolerance can be taught that easily? I think it should be a condition for coming into this country. Again and again, we see instances of homophobia and mysogyny from even the most "educated" of muslims. And when these instances do occur, there's rarely any significant backlash or dialogue about how to fix this problem. Considering that research predicts over 60% of the GTA will be visibile minorities (AKA over 30% Indian), I would hope that by this point, our immigrants would be in touch with the idea of tolerance. But I don't see much progress thus far.

Seeing as we are letting them into our country and providing them with oppurtunities, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to pass a values test.
 
German Chancellor, Anglea Murkell recently was quoted as saying that "multi-culturalism has utterly failed in Germany". She points out that a large amount of German adults do not or cannot speak German. It seems,from my understanding that her comments point out that many immigrants who have come to reside in Germany have simply not assimilated into the culture and retained their own language,customs etc..whether this is true or just political rhetoric is anybodies guess,but, it brings up an interesting point. There is likely a point at which an new immigrant to Canada does not have to adopt the values which have been seen as progressive in north america (anti racism,pro-choice freedom of religion etc..).
 
Interesting comments from Murkell ... however as a right-wing German politician, I guess they have a bit of a tradition to uphold.
 
while racial bigotry is indeed as objectionable as it is widely perceived to be, it does the overall discussion no good to shriek "racism" whenever the conversation takes a critical turn. like it or not, we are participating in a cultural experiment of sorts, and this conversation will be had. the only question is whether you will be included or not.

this won't be shouted back under a carpet.
 
First I’d like to say people are often confused by the difference between race, heritage and culture. Race is something you're born with. Heritage is your family’s past cultural experience. Culture is something you learn from your day-to-day experiences. Culture is a ‘living’ thing that is always changing and evolving, and is largely uncontrollable. It only exists in the present, not in the past.

What’s happening in Germany is their culture is evolving in a way that upsets some people. These people want a return to a past heritage that no longer exists. They think that the reason for the change in their culture is simply the addition of another racial/cultural group and getting rid of that group will return them to their ‘true’ heritage. This belief that you can manipulate culture in a large scale way is the type of thing that lead to the rise of Nazism and Communism. Unfortunately that’s not how culture works. You can’t erase something from your past that has already happened. Once the Turks came into the country German culture was affected forever.

What multi-culturalism teaches us is that you need to work with what you’ve got and try to build new and better cultures from the heritage of all other cultures. The Turks in Germany need to accept and integrate with Germans, but also the Germans need to accept and integrate with the Turks. The Germany of tomorrow will have many Turkish influences in the same way England has many Indian influences. There is no way Germany can back out of that situation now. They have to accept it and celebrate it.
 
I see no problem with Germany wanting immigrants to speak German. I think that's a rather obvious requirement for immigrants.
 
trends have changed though.

Back in the day you could actually get a decent job and not speak English...Decent manufacturing job maybe.

In today's economy, if you can not speak English and your not in the trades your at min wage.
 
Cooool said:
You believe that tolerance can be taught that easily? I think it should be a condition for coming into this country. Again and again, we see instances of homophobia and mysogyny from even the most "educated" of muslims. And when these instances do occur, there's rarely any significant backlash or dialogue about how to fix this problem. Considering that research predicts over 60% of the GTA will be visibile minorities (AKA over 30% Indian), I would hope that by this point, our immigrants would be in touch with the idea of tolerance. But I don't see much progress thus far.

Seeing as we are letting them into our country and providing them with oppurtunities, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to pass a values test.
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So what, do we kick out all the current homophobes and mysogonists that have been born in the country? Oh yes, don't you remember our new mayor, white Canadian homophobe and mysogonist Rob Ford?
Yes, tolerance can be taught, how do you think we've gone from sticking gays in psychiatric wards to allowing them to marry within a generation? I know plenty of first generation Canadian Indians and Muslims who are just fine with homosexuality, and are as far removed from being mysogonistic as you can get.

howl said:
What’s happening in Germany is their culture is evolving in a way that upsets some people. These people want a return to a past heritage that no longer exists. They think that the reason for the change in their culture is simply the addition of another racial/cultural group and getting rid of that group will return them to their ‘true’ heritage. This belief that you can manipulate culture in a large scale way is the type of thing that lead to the rise of Nazism and Communism. Unfortunately that’s not how culture works. You can’t erase something from your past that has already happened. Once the Turks came into the country German culture was affected forever.
Click to expand...
I'd certainly say that European countries have all the sense in the world to prevent a lot of new immigrants from coming. In fact, I'm kind of sad that they all feel compelled to allow in immigrants in order to keep their economies up. Europe should be having a steady trickle of immigrants, and they certainly should be expected to integrate into the society almost totally. Anyone coming to Germany or France or Britain should be expected to take up most, if not all of the culture of those countries, because it's distinct and has been established and stable for quite a long time.

But in North America, there's less of a case for that. Especially the Northeast and West Coast, which have been the centres of large scale immigration for centuries, we shouldn't be holding people back. The regions of Southern Ontario-Northern US and the West Coast from BC all down to California all have the potential to turn into great big mosiacs where everyone lives and celebrates their own culture rather than immigrating. So I don't think that we should be forcing integration, even linguistically. You'll need to make sure the economy's functioning well and be sure that their values are Western in the sense of highest fairness and liberty, but in these areas I don't see it as anywhere near as much of an issue.
 
howl said:
First I’d like to say people are often confused by the difference between race, heritage and culture. Race is something you're born with. Heritage is your family’s past cultural experience. Culture is something you learn from your day-to-day experiences. Culture is a ‘living’ thing that is always changing and evolving, and is largely uncontrollable. It only exists in the present, not in the past.

What’s happening in Germany is their culture is evolving in a way that upsets some people. These people want a return to a past heritage that no longer exists. They think that the reason for the change in their culture is simply the addition of another racial/cultural group and getting rid of that group will return them to their ‘true’ heritage. This belief that you can manipulate culture in a large scale way is the type of thing that lead to the rise of Nazism and Communism. Unfortunately that’s not how culture works. You can’t erase something from your past that has already happened. Once the Turks came into the country German culture was affected forever.

What multi-culturalism teaches us is that you need to work with what you’ve got and try to build new and better cultures from the heritage of all other cultures. The Turks in Germany need to accept and integrate with Germans, but also the Germans need to accept and integrate with the Turks. The Germany of tomorrow will have many Turkish influences in the same way England has many Indian influences. There is no way Germany can back out of that situation now. They have to accept it and celebrate it.
Click to expand...

I agree with your statement. Having grown up in Quebec in the 70's and 80's during a time of language laws. I wonder what language the "new" Germany will speak?
It may seem like a simple question,but, if there is no dominant language or no agreement on what language to communicate in..how does a country move on?
 
drone said:
German Chancellor, Anglea Murkell recently was quoted as saying that "multi-culturalism has utterly failed in Germany". She points out that a large amount of German adults do not or cannot speak German. It seems,from my understanding that her comments point out that many immigrants who have come to reside in Germany have simply not assimilated into the culture and retained their own language,customs etc...
Click to expand...

It is the same all over Europe. They actively exclude immigrants from their society and then complain about them not assimilating. Notice the focus on culture and assimilation rather than integration. Germany should be more concerned about integration and making immigrants a part of their society, and they can start by getting rid of all their laws against on the hijab, niqab and the burqa.
 
how do they actively exclude? other than religious laws, not challenging you.just a genuine question
 
Dunno about active exclusion, but maybe it's an element of culture and "passive" exclusion. My aquaintances who have emigrated to places like Switzerland or other European countries say it's a LOT harder to be considered a naturalized native there by the locals than it is going to a place like the US or Canada. eg. In Switzerland they're always the outsider, the visible minority (even if Caucasian, but with an olive complexion) and the audible minority (because they speak with an accent), but in Canada they just get treated like everyone else.

Of course, this is anecdotal, but I've heard it from many people.
 
hmm,sounds like when an anglo moves to quebec,yet speaks french with an english accent.. I see your point though
 
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