Brandon716
Senior Member
Its 5:25pm and the decision doesn't appear to be final as of yet...
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- Thread starter Brandon716
- Start date
kEiThZ
Superstar
I am one of those rarely people who does not have a pavlovian response to a ballot and will actually consider all the platforms and vote for what I think is best for my community and my country.
Last time around, I considered Dion's Green Shift to be a dangerous proposal while the economy sat at the precipice of the recession....particularly given the fact that he was still trying to meet the Kyoto deadlines. I considered that to be far too onerous a proposal for our economy so I voted for Harper.
This time around, I am impressed by Ignatieff's poise and his intellect. I will wait for his platform. But thus far, his proposal on EI, his willingess to admit that taxes might have to go up, etc. all seem to point to a pragmatic man I could vote for. And despite the adds, I consider his 34 years outside Canada to be an asset. I am sick of politicians who have no perspective of what life's like outside Canada and who have no clue about what Canada's presence really is on the world stage. For once in 20 years, I'll be glad to have a Liberal leader decently experienced with issues of foreign policy, defence, human rights, etc.
You gave a rather superficial unite-the-left (or something to that effect) suggestion that poorly reflects the history and current political realities of this country. I critiqued it.
We don't need formal coalitions which could do great damage to the Liberal brand. Pearson proved you can do a lot in a minority without a coalition.
1) That's just the way I prefer to respond to specific questions. Don't read anything into it.
2) Don't flatter yourself. Your ideas aren't new. We've thought of them before and our politicians and philosophers have been debating these and many other ideas since the inception of this country.
3) We aren't backwater hicks who need lessons from refugees of the great 2-party democracy to the south. And that too from practitioners of a system which at its core allows very little compromise...all executive power vested in one man. Now if you were coming from one of those countries notorious for coalitions in Europe or Asia, you might have some "fresh ideas".
When your done LOLOLOLing, why don't you tell us how a formal alliance with the NDP will help the Liberal party get more votes?
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kEiThZ
Superstar
I think Harper will meet Iggy's conditions. Things could get interesting...you can't really fight an election over a debate by how well the other side met your conditions. Or at least I don't think so.
Prometheus The Supremo
►Member №41+⅜◄
i guess we have to wait 'till tomorrow for any news on plug pulling.
Brandon716
Senior Member
Yea, doesn't look like it'll be today since they are holding talks tomorrow.
afransen
Senior Member
Anyone understand/respect the NDP positon of: "We don't want an election. We will vote no confidence in this government at every opportunity. We don't think this government should be defeated."
Anyone else think the NDP position is insane?
Anyone else think the NDP position is insane?
kEiThZ
Superstar
Meh...it'll go down to Friday. There's no way this'll end before then. If you were the Liberal leader would you not drag it out regardless of what your decision was?
Brandon716
Senior Member
The NDP is in a very strong position and they stand to lose votes and ridings if another election is held, but they don't agree with the Harper government's policies. Obviously that's why they are in a neurotic scenario on bringing down Harper, but they did commit to vote against his government.
Now, with that said, it leaves the Liberals in a precarious position: support the Conservative gov't, forge another election (which the Liberals don't stand to gain anything more than a minority government if they win at all), or work with the NDP in a formal coalition since the NDP would be very agreeable at this point in history.
Ignatieff already forged his own direction and since the Liberal party isn't financially setup for an election you'll see Ignatieff play the probation thing up, and scream bloody murder, yet back the Conservative government until he thinks its appropriate to run.
Ignatieff's team is measuring whether the Liberals have the support and money to run and win a campaign given the fact that he's given up on a coalition idea.
If Iggy votes down the budget, his advisors came to the conclusion they believe the Liberal brand is strong enough to win a minority gov't with a comfortable margin, if he votes with the Conservatives he's showing he doesn't think the party can take an election yet.
Edit: its unfortunate certain individuals on this forum think I'm mentioning I have 'fresh ideas' because i'm a US citizen by birth, it couldn't be further from the truth. I think its a fresh idea for Canada to have a coalition government, and it wasn't anything in the US system that I'm referencing. Jean Chretien was one of the people who supported the coalition behind closed doors and worked behind closed doors to see the NDP-Liberal coalition come to fruition last fall, just to be done away with by Ignatieff. Chretien has fresh ideas as much as anyone, and he has always had a good way of reading the Canadian pulse. I find it amazing so-called adult professionals attempt to make everything a personal attack. Now my comments are unworthy because I am a native born American who has chosen to move to Canada by choice? Uh, right... I prefer the Canadian way.
Now, with that said, it leaves the Liberals in a precarious position: support the Conservative gov't, forge another election (which the Liberals don't stand to gain anything more than a minority government if they win at all), or work with the NDP in a formal coalition since the NDP would be very agreeable at this point in history.
Ignatieff already forged his own direction and since the Liberal party isn't financially setup for an election you'll see Ignatieff play the probation thing up, and scream bloody murder, yet back the Conservative government until he thinks its appropriate to run.
Ignatieff's team is measuring whether the Liberals have the support and money to run and win a campaign given the fact that he's given up on a coalition idea.
If Iggy votes down the budget, his advisors came to the conclusion they believe the Liberal brand is strong enough to win a minority gov't with a comfortable margin, if he votes with the Conservatives he's showing he doesn't think the party can take an election yet.
Edit: its unfortunate certain individuals on this forum think I'm mentioning I have 'fresh ideas' because i'm a US citizen by birth, it couldn't be further from the truth. I think its a fresh idea for Canada to have a coalition government, and it wasn't anything in the US system that I'm referencing. Jean Chretien was one of the people who supported the coalition behind closed doors and worked behind closed doors to see the NDP-Liberal coalition come to fruition last fall, just to be done away with by Ignatieff. Chretien has fresh ideas as much as anyone, and he has always had a good way of reading the Canadian pulse. I find it amazing so-called adult professionals attempt to make everything a personal attack. Now my comments are unworthy because I am a native born American who has chosen to move to Canada by choice? Uh, right... I prefer the Canadian way.
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afransen
Senior Member
Just to be clear Brandon, there is no legal precedent to support Ignatieff being allowed to form government without an election. Thus, there is no coalition with the NDP in the cards without first going through an election. That ship has sailed.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Not just that....there's no way the GG would hand over the keys to 27 Sussex Drive without a statement of support from the Bloc. We'd be back to December 08 all over again. Except that this time, since sufficient time has passed, the GG would probably be compelled to call an election instead of allowing the coalition to go forward. Therefore, whatever the situation, the Liberals cannot govern without an election at this juncture, NDP support or not.
kEiThZ
Superstar
And that's why I'll never vote NDP. Any party that whines like a 4 year old and does not present a thoughtful, well reasoned alternative does not deserve a chance to govern in my books. How many of those NDP MPs actually considered the needs of their constituents? Iggy got it bang on with his statement about the Bloc and the NDP being perpetual opposition parties. All so they can bitch about how many times Iggy voted with Harper.
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H
Hydrogen
Guest
Maybe it's a case of the NDP having "fresh ideas."
The thought of the Liberals forming an actual coalition with them is now officially laughable.
The thought of the Liberals forming an actual coalition with them is now officially laughable.
adma
Superstar
Especially as some (especially NDPers) may argue that the Liberals are already in a formal alliance position--with the (ex-)Progressive Conservatives.
Brandon716
Senior Member
The Liberals can't do any worse with an NDP coalition than they can propping up the Harper gov't and keeping them 'on probation'.
And need I repeat: I don't anticipate the Liberals and NDP forming a coalition, I am just stating that it would be a good idea given the circumstances.
And need I repeat: I don't anticipate the Liberals and NDP forming a coalition, I am just stating that it would be a good idea given the circumstances.
Brandon716
Senior Member
I know that ship has sailed, especially with Ignatieff at the helm, but it doesn't hurt to discuss theoreticals.