[West Toronto Junction]

I'll say it again - GO serves a completely different, very limited market compared to the subway. ...

Yes, express tracks north of Eglinton would serve little purpose. However, express tracks south of Eglinton would improve the commute of probably about 500,000 people per day. Upgrading the Richmond Hill line would cost the same, however even if ridership increased tenfold, it would only benefit about 75,000 people. Note that today, about the same number of people use Summerhill Station as the entire Richmond Hill line.

People who live in the city deserve quick, easy, express transit too. I don't support express tracks north of Eglinton, however I believe that express tracks would be a very worth cause between Eglinton and Union Station, as well as on the inner BD subway. After building a complete and proper DRL, I believe that the next subway building priority should be adding express tracks to the south Yonge line.

RESPONSE:

Many of the comments dismiss the idea of the Y.E.S. because it would cost a lot. To dismiss a big cost without considering the size of the benefit is small-minded. Many feel it would not serve the transit community. Yet Yonge Street is a huge transit community. The comment quoted from Chuck raises this point.

In the end we won't know if this is pie-in-the-sky until we do, (1) a real cost estimate for this proposal, for the east-west downtown relief line, and for high-service electrified GO in the Don valley, (2) a real demand estimate for each of the three and, (3) a real economic cost-benefit analysis to compare them.

I have no idea which would work out best. But I also believe no one has the evidence to allow an informed discussion to take place. So my suggestion is that this kind of technical work be done with public participation and presented for us all to think about.

Finally, and again I wish for a map, the Y.E.S. proposal is for new express tracks _only_ from just north of the existing Eglinton station to Union. This augments the original Yonge line only. The tracks and service north of Eglinton stay as they are and are _not_ duplicated. So both the DRL and the Y.E.S. are subways of the same magnitude (see original post).

I will be on vacation for a few weeks and look forward to adding to the discussion on return.

Regards,
West Toronto Junction

 

[Miskaton]

Since there seems to have been some confusion as to exactly what WTJ was proposing, I've sketched out the idea here:

I do think it is worthy of serious consideration, as it is rather different from a RH upgrade in its much greater connectivity with the rest of the system, particularly the potential for a speedy link between DTR, Bloor-Danforth, Eglinton, and Sheppard. If tunneling under the existing YUS line south of Bloor (or more likely, south of College) isn't dramatically expensive, I'd say it's as viable as most other subway proposals under consideration. ISTM it's the only long-term solution to the capacity constraints in the Yonge corridor.

 

[RedRocket191]

Good of you for dreaming, but the big question remains:

Why Queen?

Why (Insert whatever station you end up selecting)?

 

[Second_in_pie]

I've begun to see the little bit of merit in this.

But the thing I envision isn't like that map there, and is probably several times more expensive. I'd be like a totally separate line, stopping at Union, Queen, Bloor, Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch and Highway 7. It could maybe be a super-realignment and upgrade of Richmond Hill Go, taking a faster and more direct route downtown. It'd probably be quite, if not insanely, expensive, and I'm about 90% sure the cost will never pay for itself in usefulness. Of course, it'd only require 7 stations, and those would just be station upgrades, and there are probably some parts of the YUS that could use some shared track. It is by far the most direct route for RH Go, and it could quite easily connect with the Go trackage at Langstaff. RH Go is going to need some major improvements anyways, so there could be some "cost savings" there too.

Am I right about it being a pipe dream? It'd essentially be a super-express YUS, probably running on overhead wires and running up along the Richmond Hill line. It's terminus station at Union could even be connected to the Go concourse instead of TTC station, to maximize connections with the rest of the regional network. Does anyone have any idea what this could cost? Because I have absolutely none.


Miskaton, as for your idea, I see how it could work. But would it not make more sense to run the YUS as it is currently, but with an express train south of Eglinton? Essentially the same as the current TTC map, but with the blue "express line" from Eglinton to Union. I figure that way, people can get off their train if they want a quick trip downtown, but can stay on if they want a stop between Eglinton and Bloor. I guess it would do a good job of cutting the subway into more manageable slices though...

 

[Miskaton]

Good of you for dreaming, but the big question remains:

Why Queen?

Why (Insert whatever station you end up selecting)?

The route shown is the one WTJ described, you'd have to ask him.

Had I chosen it I would have had

If DTR follows King Street

• Queen - connection with Queen streetcar and access to Eaton Centre and shopping district
• King - connection with DTR, access to PATH, office district
• Union - connection with GO, access to PATH, office district
• Simcoe/Front - access to Convention Centre, Simcoe Place
• Spadina/Front -access to Rogers Centre
• City Centre Airport

If DTR follows rail corridor

• Queen - as above
• King - access to PATH, office district
• Yonge/Esplanade - connection with DTR, GO (via Union Station)
• Queen's Quay/Ferry Docks

 

[kEiThZ]

Uggh. Why does this come up every few months?

It's a waste of cash. Most of us would rather the grow the subway network than add express service to one line. That's what GO is there for.

 

[RedRocket191]

Uggh. Why does this come up every few months?

It's a waste of cash. Most of us would rather the grow the subway network than add express service to one line. That's what GO is there for.

I agree. GO lines should act like regional subways.

 

[Miskaton]

Uggh. Why does this come up every few months?

It's a waste of cash. Most of us would rather the grow the subway network than add express service to one line.

Hence forums like this one, where some of us can come to try to persuade most of us to reconsider.

That's what GO is there for.

GO doesn't have the same potential to connect with the rest of the system, and with the E-W arterial bus routes north of Eglinton. GO also is unlikely to provide much relief for capacity trouble due to intensive development in the immediate vicinity of Yonge.

 

[andrewpmk]

I would much rather see a Don Mills subway, i.e. a northern extension of the Downtown Relief line to take over the currently proposed Don Mills LRT, and in the long term terminating at Finch/Don Mills near Seneca College.

An express subway along Yonge is stupid because it doesn't increase the area served by the subway system at all. Aside from capacity relief, which is only required during rush hour, the only benefit of such a subway is to reduce the length of commutes along the Yonge line by a few minutes. My suspicion is that the express tracks would only operate during rush hour anyway because the rest of the time, there is plenty of excess capacity. In contrast, a Don Mills line has a similar function in the east to the Spadina line in the west: it intercepts commuters on buses and the Eglinton and Sheppard LRTs from the east before they reach the Yonge line, saving them a significant amount of time. Furthermore, a Don Mills subway would serve significant high density areas such as Thorncliffe and Flemingdon Park, Lawrence/Don Mills, Sheppard/Don Mills and Seneca College.

As for the Richmond Hill GO line, this serves a very different market (commuters from north of Toronto to downtown). Since upgrading this line wouldn't be very expensive there's no harm in doing so, but I would not expect this to provide much relief since it completely bypasses North York Centre, Yonge/Eglinton and Yonge/Bloor (and no connection is possible to the B-D line making the line very inconvenient for getting to Yonge/Bloor).

 

[kettal]

GO can easily connect with Sheppard & Finch East (it already does, just not very well), and if re-routed also Don Mills & Eglinton East.

 

[Disparishun]

As for the Richmond Hill GO line, this serves a very different market (commuters from north of Toronto to downtown). Since upgrading this line wouldn't be very expensive there's no harm in doing so, but I would not expect this to provide much relief since it completely bypasses North York Centre, Yonge/Eglinton and Yonge/Bloor (and no connection is possible to the B-D line making the line very inconvenient for getting to Yonge/Bloor).

The Richmond Hill GO line is most useful for commuters from the east part of northern Toronto to the financial district. (It serves commuters from north of Toronto relatively poorly.)

It bypasses Yonge Street, since that is not its alignment (until it meanders back to it north of Steeles), but it does not bypass the Finch future-LRT or Sheppard subway line, and need not bypass the Eglinton LRT, either. EDIT: Oops, basically what Kettal said. Point is, there are a bunch of connections it ought to make if/when upgraded to provide true north-south express service on an eastern alignment.

 

[Fresh Start]

Capitalizing upon the availability of the Bala Sub for REX- regional electrified express rail services is a better idea than either the Richmond Hill YUS extension or adding a third track express component to the existing Yonge line, IMO. I’m not entirely convinced that the demand levels for direct RHC-NYCC subway service are really as high as many purport here. Most 905 commuters are destined for south-of-Bloor locations. That said, it’s only a 5 minute backtrack from Oriole GO via Leslie Stn to NYCC, not exactly the end of the world. I’m certain that a future GO /REX stop could also be built at Wynford/Eglinton to interface with the “subway†that’ll eventually arrive there soon. That also makes the commute to Yonge/Eglinton relatively easy.

And if all else fails, who’s to say that a subway extension to RHC the only means to feed 905ers directly onto the north end of North York’s Yonge? DMU running alongside the rail corridors- both Bala and York Subs- could carry direct trips from Richmond Hill to a future Steeles Stn via a short 500m tunnel from the York Sub/Yonge to inside the subway, likely a cross-platform interchange. This largely duplicates the functionality of a RHC extension. Clark/Yonge gets a stop courtesy of vertical inclined people-movers running through the hill, and the 3 bus meets at a station with some actual density on-site (Thornhill Sq is of regional significance and the condos nearby have more housing units ergo more walk-in potential than Royal Orchard). Richmond Hill Centre still benefits from having direct rapid transit (now to multiple subway stops) right at its doorstep. Of course try to bring up these logical alternatives to RHC extension and advocates throw everything and the kitchen sink at you for questioning how several billions of dollars without much thought can so readily be thrown down the drain.

But OT, WTJ’s proposal will not save much travel times for southbound commuters and would inconvenience many from having to transfer if their stop’s bypassed. The solution comes from revitalizing the DRT plans, which hopefully will send some love to the inner-city and not so rigidly only cater to the far-removed waterfront and rail-corridor areas. If several trip-generators throughout the core can accessed via the DRT, commuters’ dependency on the YUS loop for travel options will lessen.

 

[subway safety]

Does anymore have a good idea as to what it would cost for this YES line as drawn out by Miskaton?

 

[kEiThZ]

GO doesn't have the same potential to connect with the rest of the system, and with the E-W arterial bus routes north of Eglinton. GO also is unlikely to provide much relief for capacity trouble due to intensive development in the immediate vicinity of Yonge.

The connections GO has are sufficient for those who want a somewhat express service....especially once the Transit City lines come in. Other than that a YES service is a waste of money. The time savings won't be substantial at all for the majority of riders. And the capacity will be useless outside of peak hours.

We'd be better off spending that money on growing the subway network. With the Spadina and Yonge extensions the North will be well served. Other regions need transit improvements too.

 

[Chuck]

I'm a huge proponent of express subways, but I just don't think that the time is right today. Express subways are justified when a city is already saturated with subway lines, but still suffers from overcrowding. With everyone already served by a local stop, and no corridors lacking a subway line, that's when enhancements to existing lines make sense.

Having said that, recognize too that the Yonge line already is, by New York standards at least, a true express line north of Eglinton. Express lines in NY generally bypass 2 out of 3 stations, and are about 2 km apart. That is exactly what the Yonge line does north of Eglinton when compared to the section downtown.

If the Yonge line ever gets 4 tracks north of Eglinton, express service should match today's station spacing. The 2 new tracks would in fact be new local tracks, and should include the opening of at least 2 extra stations between the existing ones.

Finally, my thoughts on the Richmond Hill line are probably well known by now - it is not a substitute for the subway as most trips on the Yonge line end at or north of Queen. Especially for people that live in the north end of the city who are more likely to work in NYCC, midtown, or Bloor.