[ceaz40]

Hi
I'm glad I brought up the Yonge Street Parade of yesteryear. I've read some really great responses/opinions. One comment I would make, I had mostly young friends and a few older ones. The young ones, such as myself at the time, were lucky if we earned 9 or 10 grand a year before taxes. We all had our own apartments at roughly 300-400 a month rent. We couldn't afford cars so, usually it was friends who were in their 30's and better established, who had cars. I relied on transit, walking and biking until my early 30's. There was no parental help of any kind. You were told to get out and make it on your own. After paying bills, there was little left to enjoy anything you had to spend money on. Perhaps, as I rethink it, that was why cruising Yonge Street seemed exciting and glamorous to an 18 year old. Very non materialistic, you didn't have to spend money but, you could feel by driving by that you were a part of it. The neon lights were spectacular. Friends who were from smaller locales were in awe. Maybe young people today, with instant gratification ideals, sadly missed that "aspiration" to a more "glam" life. Everything is there from the beginning....nothing to wish or hope for in your imagination. Lol though I wouldn't think it now, being able to leave an after hours club at 4 in the morning and finding an all night donut place available to give me a great cup of coffee and a "coconut sprinkle" was all I needed to make me happy. I miss those simple days.

 

[ceaz40]

For those in my community and of my age group....I forgot to mention....the 1am drag show at the Club Manatee...running by Katrina's disco to grab a slice of great pie and a coffee at the Cafe New Orleans....the damn ceiling fans and paned windows would be, in my imagination, the closest I'd get to the New Orleans experience until I established myself years later. The real thing was great but, to a poor 18 year old, the cafe invoked much stronger memories : )
Mods....lol I'm feeling nostalgically...is there any way to develop a new thread on here....perhaps
President's Choice....Memories of Toronto.
The city is changing so quickly, we need to remember what we had. It would appeal to everyone as even young people are having trouble remembering what Clubland was...for the record, it was a nasty barren industrial wasteland when I was their age.

 

[thecharioteer]

The 80s was really the swan-song era of car culture, to be sure, but it was also the final days of Yonge Street as a vibrant draw, in a way that public spaces in the pre-social media age could still draw people out to just hang and be.

In those days people came to Yonge on foot or by car to make the ritual progress up and down the thoroughfare, checking out the lights, the crowds, and general spectacle of all that was on offer... but this wasn't a consumer-centric ritual, which might be difficult for Ksun and many millennials to grasp:

A good time wasn't always equated with a consumer moment or experience in quite the same way it is today. Interaction was the defining element of the urban experience then, whereas commercialism seems to be the defining element now. The funny thing is, despite the growth in population and density we still see a rise in social alienation. Technology is very likely the key factor. You can add as much density as a place can sustain, take away all the cars and build transit everywhere but urban vibrancy will still never be the same in the technological era as it was before.... unless it takes on a different defining element at some point.

Great analysis, Tewder. What you're describing (and which I experienced) was Toronto's Saturday night vehicular version of the Italian "passeggiata", the evening promenade in which the town turned out to see and be seen. True, this was not about retail, but retail played a role, particularly Sam's and A&A's, for post-movie perusing. (The classic "Going Down the Road" captured the moment beautifully.)

You're so right about the aspect of "interaction". Perhaps that longing accounts for the continued success of TIFF, and its popularity is not in spite of the line-ups but because of them. The communal experience of seeing a movie with 2000 people at the Elgin addresses the void experienced by the generation who do not think it odd to watch a movie on an iPhone.

 

[M.R.Victor]

I moved to Toronto 10 years ago, so while I can't comment on what was happening in the 80s, the city has dramatically changed for the better in the duration I was here.

By reading the comments of some of the older posters, I get the notion that there is a general mis-reading of the rituals of interaction of young people today, and it usually gets summarized by verdicts such as "social alienation" and "consumerism," which are contrasted to the more "interaction" focused attitude of their glory days. This attitude overlooks the fact that all those things that used to make Yonge Street fun in the past now reside in the smart-phone in your pocket, and that social media is so interaction-focused one could call it "hyper-interaction."

By the sounds of it, Yonge street used to be a giant arcade. Now it's a giant shopping mall. Perhaps somewhat of a down-grade, but I fail to see the loss, especially since there are countless more varied social and cultural offerings just a few steps away.

 

[JasonParis]

I'm going to have to disagree with you Jason. I don't find that young people in northwest Etobicoke or eastern Scarborough are very much more enthusiastic about car ownership than young people downtown are. Honestly finances has little to do with it in my opinion. I think that cars just fell out of fashion. No longer do they view car ownership as their key to freedom, as I suspect young people in the 50s to 80s did. Instead they're regarded as just another headache in life.

Which was my point. I don't see what you are disagreeing with.

Also, those that still wished to "cruise" would have found it less conducive on a street with streetcars (i.e. Queen West), or one-way with less street-life and built-in audience (i.e., Adelaide or Richmond).

 

[ksun]

Do you really feel sorry for me, though? I think you're being insincere. Come on - fess up!

Now I asked you a honest question - why are you here, in Toronto? It's a question, not a demand for you to leave the city. Can't you recognize the difference? You do spend an awful lot of time complaining about the city as it is; it just makes me wonder if you don't simply like to gripe. And hey - if it floats yer boat, that's fine! Just trying to understand you a little better.

haha. Tewder asked me the question what I consider a good city size, and I replied by saying 10M. Is that a "complaint"? Should I have said Toronto has the perfect size?
Yes, I think Toronto should be more populous and a lot more dense, but I really NOT complaining in this particular thread. I simply responded to a question.

If anything, those who think Toronto was better 20 years ago were complaining. I think the city is on the right track and lot of positive things are happening as we speak. Yes it is still a bit small and residential for my taste, but it is changing.

 

[Lenser]

It's a bit small and residential for your tastes? How will it get bigger, denser, if it doesn't get more residential?

 

[Tewder]

By reading the comments of some of the older posters, I get the notion that there is a general mis-reading of the rituals of interaction of young people today, and it usually gets summarized by verdicts such as "social alienation" and "consumerism," which are contrasted to the more "interaction" focused attitude of their glory days.

I'm not sure how this is a misinterpretation?

Firstly: When I asked Ksun what he feels is so remarkably better about urban Toronto today than in the past (and this has been his ongoing assertion, by the way) he points to the glossier retail experiences and hipper restaurants afforded by Toronto's greater standing in a global world (commercialism, in other words). This is his initial response, and it's a fair one too, by the way. I just simply don't happen to agree that this makes the urban experience today appreciably better.

Secondly: How am I mischaracterizing social interactions today (and it's not just the 'young' who are interacting in these ways now either, by the way)? Even if I accept your assertion that virtual communication does facilitate the same quality of interaction (which I don't) I fail to see how this improves the urban experience or makes it better? On the contrary these things have laid waste to the vitality and diversity of many of our urban meeting spaces, to which:

This attitude overlooks the fact that all those things that used to make Yonge Street fun in the past now reside in the smart-phone in your pocket, and that social media is so interaction-focused one could call it "hyper-interaction."

Although I agree with your term 'hyper-interaction' (in this context) I can't help but feel it refers to intensity not quality, which are two different things.

 

[GenerationW]

By the sounds of it, Yonge street used to be a giant arcade.

Very much so. I wasted a ton of quarters there in the 80s.

 

[bAuHaUs]

Very much so. I wasted a ton of quarters there in the 80s.

I second that....a poor boy's Vegas....great memories though.

 

[M.R.Victor]

Agreed, I am conflating intensity with quality, though I feel that's inevitable in today's climate because each platform extrapolates upon a small set of interactive functions. We thus get a very fragmented set of social experiences, each with a long but narrow reach, and the challenge of growing up nowadays is to find a way to bring those separate threads into a coherent whole.

Face-to-face, same thing, different flavor. The social ice at the beginning of a meeting is now mediated by staring at your phone rather than staring at your shoelaces. Technology maintains bridges of familiarity across great spans of distance and time, allowing for more friends, less upkeep and more re-unions.

Public life will likely thrive so long as large cities are around. As our living spaces get smaller and smaller, our living rooms, kitchens and laundry rooms will spill into the public realm. Snakes and Lattes is a great example. Or perhaps physical space will increasingly be dedicated to niche experiences. Nuit-blanche comes to mind. As shops have broader and broader reach they will likely become more and more specialized, and people will seek out these sort of sensory experiences.

Finally, although ksun spoke of commercial and consumerist desires, I think their true meaning is not in the things themselves, but rather in the implied connectedness with other centers of human activity. I could certainly make the argument that cruising is about peacocking, plain and simple, thought to be so reductionist would mean to disregard a certain moment in time, it's flavor and the conditions that brought it about.

 

[Tewder]

Public life will likely thrive so long as large cities are around. As our living spaces get smaller and smaller, our living rooms, kitchens and laundry rooms will spill into the public realm. Snakes and Lattes is a great example. Or perhaps physical space will increasingly be dedicated to niche experiences. Nuit-blanche comes to mind. As shops have broader and broader reach they will likely become more and more specialized, and people will seek out these sort of sensory experiences.

I'm not discounting your argument but the examples you give are so rarified they almost subvert it. Nuit Blanche happens once a year, and though i'm pretty sure you're referring more generally to specialized events overall these things don't really equate to daily/weekly life... and nor is there a Snakes and Ladders on every corner, so to speak.

... and I'm not suggesting there aren't a lot of amazing things about urban Toronto these days (or urban anywhere), only that it is not necessarily a given that things are objectively better today than in the 'good old days' simply because the city is bigger and has greater density, even if these things are good things.

Finally, although ksun spoke of commercial and consumerist desires, I think their true meaning is not in the things themselves, but rather in the implied connectedness with other centers of human activity.

... and yet the connectivity really isn't there in the same way, if we are looking at today vs the past. In the past, going to a book store or record store or anywhere was just as much about the shared interactive experience with others doing the same thing as it was about shopping...and these activities weren't just niche or for ironic hipsters, they were common to all. I suppose the iTunes online store or Amazon user reviews fill a similar role but I'm just not sure how these things necessitate or facilitate an urban context?

 

[acornman]

I moved to Toronto 10 years ago, so while I can't comment on what was happening in the 80s, the city has dramatically changed for the better in the duration I was here.

I was born in the city and my memories of Yonge, and the city in general go back to about the late 80s. I would agree with you that the city has improved greatly, especially in areas of culture, entertainment, and social life. I don't know how the city was before the 80s, but I do think that people are more out and about these days compared to the preceding decades. The city doesn't feel as empty and drab as it used to. On days with nice weather most downtown parks, the waterfront area, and other public spaces are filled with people just hanging around and enjoying their time. Most small festivals that barely got any attention are now packed with people. The social interaction is definitely still here.

In terms of Yonge St. I would say that the period from the late 80s up until the early 2000s was a bit of a dark age. Just a mile of drab concrete, small bargain stores, a few electronics shops, some shoe and bag stores, and a lot of seedy places like strip clubs, adult stores etc. After about 7pm it would feel quite deserted and not a place you would want to hang out.

The growth of Ryerson, and other commercial developments has also helped the street become more lively again.

 

[freshcutgrass]

... and yet the connectivity really isn't there in the same way, if we are looking at today vs the past. In the past, going to a book store or record store or anywhere was just as much about the shared interactive experience with others doing the same thing as it was about shopping...and these activities weren't just niche or for ironic hipsters, they were common to all. I suppose the iTunes online store or Amazon user reviews fill a similar role but I'm just not sure how these things necessitate or facilitate an urban context?

...which is why the thoughtfulness is no longer there. And it reflects in the results....that's why I mentioned the year of 1977 in music completely destroys the entire 21st century combined. We live in a more consumer-driven society now, and the consumers have become pods in recent decades....and it shows.



What do I miss most about Yonge Street?

CAMEL TOE!!!!

 

[Tewder]

Well the closing of the El Mo sort of sums all of this up nicely.... The city today is more vibrant? Am I missing something?