News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
A Message to Our Readers
 9K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
EarthCam Time-Lapse Documents Rafael Viñoly-Designed New Stanford Hospital Construction
 40K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
Resort Town
 5.1K     0 

vz64 said:
My point was not whether or not Sheppard has sufficient density between Yonge and Downsview (however, Yonge/Sheppard and Bathurst/Sheppard are high-density intersections and Downsview is growing fast). I wanted to point out that this connection will bring new riders (like myself) who are not counted by TTC calculations of potential ridership. After YorkU extension is built, the link would also create a continuous East-West subway connection.
Click to expand...

Any new subway line, any rapid transit line in fact, will attract new ridership. That doesn't mean that it is warranted, especially after TYSSE and a parallel LRT line only 2kms to the north that'd siphon away any potential north-south commuters, which in this case is only the 7/160 bus. There is nothing through this stretch worthy of higher-order transit. The Wilson Yard case is a poor rationale. RHC extension could come outfitted with it an underground yard facility at the 407 as was discussed. Trips from York U through to Scarborough don't necessarily have to be via subways and don't necessarily require a series of transfers either. If I told you get from directly from York U to Malvern Town Centre, one-seat ride, within 40 minutes you'd probably wonder how this could be. The answer is simple, since subways cannot go everywhere, make the bus' quality of service comparable to rail transit. Billion-dollar subway extensions and road-median LRT projects aren't the solution for everything. If the city/region wasn't so status challenged perhaps more city councillors would embrace more affordable rapid transit options for its citizenry. It is people like you and I that are suffering in the meanwhile as the fares soar and the service deteriorates.

Sheppard East has a far better justification. Consumers is a major employment centre. Vic Park has lots of nearby apartments, as does Warden and Brichmount. Kennedy has condos, malls. The GO station connection would minimize commutes between NYCC and eastern Markham. This is a continuous sequence of nodes averaging every 1000 metres. If I had to choose, I'd pick it. It's far less complicated to increase the frequency of 84E and 196B buses between Downsview and Yonge than what you are suggesting.
 
Fresh Start said:
...
Sheppard East has a far better justification. Consumers is a major employment centre. Vic Park has lots of nearby apartments, as does Warden and Brichmount. Kennedy has condos, malls. The GO station connection would minimize commutes between NYCC and eastern Markham. This is a continuous sequence of nodes averaging every 1000 metres. If I had to choose, I'd pick it. It's far less complicated to increase the frequency of 84E and 196B buses between Downsview and Yonge than what you are suggesting.
Click to expand...

Agreed that Sheppard E has a better justification for extension (esp. if it goes to SCC). Still, there is no East-West subway connection in the northern part of Toronto. 401 is a good example of East-West traffic volumes.

Imagine that Yonge line has a gap between Eglinton and York Mills, or somewhere else where the population density is low. Then, by your argument, it would be waste of money to connect these two parts because the gap doesn't have density needed to build a subway.
 
vz64 said:
Agreed that Sheppard E has a better justification for extension (esp. if it goes to SCC). Still, there is no East-West subway connection in the northern part of Toronto. 401 is a good example of East-West traffic volumes.

Imagine that Yonge line has a gap between Eglinton and York Mills, or somewhere else where the population density is low. Then, by your argument, it would be waste of money to connect these two parts because the gap doesn't have density needed to build a subway.
Click to expand...

But... in Yonge's case there's a major trip generator that is being bridged via running through lower-density Lawrence: North York City Centre, as well closer proximity to York Region. What's being bridged exactly via running a Sheppard West subway? That's right, a transfer onto another subway. Interlining's unlikely and would seriously inconvenience downtown-bound customers of TYSSE if only every second train went south of Downsview. I empathize if your bus link isn't as frequent as a subway could be, but subways cannot possibly route everywhere a handful of commuters need to go. For far less expense a busway could extend right across Finch/F.H.C. and offer branching services that route into office parks and neighbourhoods when demand levels commands it. Cheaper than either LRT or HRT and would be more connective, direct and accessible.
 
Fresh Start said:
...
What's being bridged exactly via running a Sheppard West subway?
...
Click to expand...

It will connect NYCC with high density areas east of Keele-Finch area via new Spadina extension. A few years later, NYCC-VCC (or VMCC?) as well. I agree that the link might wait a few years, but it will be needed eventually.
 
leopetr said:
The Yonge extension also provides 0 additional capacity into the core while dumping millions of new riders on the existing at capacity subway lines. You are just playing favourites.
Click to expand...

Not really. My biggest if not only beef with Transit City is that it proposes to build streetcar lines in lieu of subway lines. A few new strategically placed subway lines - which would not necessarily mirror the proposed transit city lines - would be a much greater asset to the city than 10 times the length of streetcar lines.

As for Yonge, there is (in principal) nothing better for this city than building new subway lines on streets which actually deserve that level of service. If that's what we did everywhere, the city would be much easier to traverse. The capacity issues are unfortunate, but at least it's due to a logical expansion of the transit system.
 
Fresh Start said:
But... in Yonge's case there's a major trip generator that is being bridged via running through lower-density Lawrence: North York City Centre, as well closer proximity to York Region. What's being bridged exactly via running a Sheppard West subway? That's right, a transfer onto another subway. Interlining's unlikely and would seriously inconvenience downtown-bound customers of TYSSE if only every second train went south of Downsview. I empathize if your bus link isn't as frequent as a subway could be, but subways cannot possibly route everywhere a handful of commuters need to go. For far less expense a busway could extend right across Finch/F.H.C. and offer branching services that route into office parks and neighbourhoods when demand levels commands it. Cheaper than either LRT or HRT and would be more connective, direct and accessible.
Click to expand...

York U is a major trip generator in itself. As will Downsview once the Downsview Park plan in completed.

However the benefit to the Sheppard W connection is the operational benefit of being able to easily access the Wilson yards. The cost of the connection is much cheaper than an underground yard at the 407.
 
Last edited:
Woodbridge_Heights said:
York U is a major trip generator in itself. As will Downsview once the Downsview Park plan in completed.

However the benefit to the Sheppard W connection is the operational benefit of being able to easily access the Wilson yards. The cost of the connection is much cheaper than an underground yard at the 407.
Click to expand...

The cost is cheaper? What? It's not even close to being anywhere near cheaper, and would still not provide required yard capacity. The current proposal to build extended tail tracks for overnight storage is much cheaper than building a sheppard W connection along with additional yard space at wilson.

Building a sheppard west extension would cost at least six to eight hundred million dollars. If it is going to be built then it should be because the service is needed, not to save a relative minuscule amount in dead heading costs.
 
Why does it have to be one or the other? The westward extension would kill two birds, and provide ample value for our dollar.

And really, the true choice should be between

a) build the tail tracks in Richmond Hill, build the Finch LRT out to Don Mills, and factor in the extra cost of deadheading

vs

b) build the westward extension of Sheppard (gaining a huge bonus to network connectivity and convenience), go with a much smaller tail track section in Richmond Hill (you'll still want some sort of storage up there), scrap the redundant chunk of the Finch LRT, and save on the unnecessary deadheading.

Even if b ended up costing $500 million more it's such a superior alternative that it feels like this shouldn't even be a discussion
 
Underground subway yard? that sounds horribly depressing for those who would work there... Plus its harder to sneak a peak at what they're doing :p
 
A pro-transit TTC would have used the subway yard as a reason to build the Sheppard West extension. But since the TTC isn't, they're not. A TTC that believed in the Sheppard line would extend it both east and west.
 
One of the things I haven't seen mentioned here is the fact that tunnels already extend 20% of the way to Downsview. It wouldn't be a major extension yet it would have a major impact on system connectivity.
 
CityPlaceN1 said:
One of the things I haven't seen mentioned here is the fact that tunnels already extend 20% of the way to Downsview. It wouldn't be a major extension yet it would have a major impact on system connectivity.
Click to expand...

Tail tracks don't help reduce costs in any way. The same distance past Downsview as exists past Sheppard would be required.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top