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Thanks !

I've always found the blue ridership figures low ... what I mean is (its around 17-20K) but the route feels like its busier ! There are many TTC routes with 17/20K and I could swear viva blue actually feels busier then these comparable TTC routes.

I'm guessing the reason here is Viva blue has high rush hour ridership but lower ridership at other times.


Purple / Pink are still surprisingly low ! Particularly Viva purple / pink east (along with the #1 bus) ... there is a ton of employment along Hi-way 7, from roughly Bathurst / Leslie all the way to Warden ... a lot of these businesses are just off Hi-way 7, maybe a 5/10min walk max, though the walk isn't much fun for a lot of these places (as they're not directly on 7).

I'm afraid the rapid way isn't going to make much of a difference here ... an attitude adjustment is required ... it would be nice for businesses to offer transit incentives (e.g. free YRT montly passes).

I work for a large company along this stretch, and unfortunately the only people who really take transit is our interns ; - ) ... though we have a lot of them.

Just a theory, but perhaps the fact that there are fewer stops on the Viva compounds the ridership so that it feels busier? Also since it runs less frequently than many TTC bus routes (7.5 minutes between Bernard and Finch, not including Pink or parallel YRT routes) could this impact how congested it feels as well?

As for the Purple, besides the fact that connections to it are utter crap, I think the construction bottleneck is chasing people away from it. I know if I commuted from Markham to York, I would find a way to the GO bus and take that instead. Like the Thornhill and Richmond Hill diversions, it also detours into downtown Markham, which only further discourages through commuters from further east from taking the service.
 
Just a theory, but perhaps the fact that there are fewer stops on the Viva compounds the ridership so that it feels busier? Also since it runs less frequently than many TTC bus routes (7.5 minutes between Bernard and Finch, not including Pink or parallel YRT routes) could this impact how congested it feels as well?

As for the Purple, besides the fact that connections to it are utter crap, I think the construction bottleneck is chasing people away from it. I know if I commuted from Markham to York, I would find a way to the GO bus and take that instead. Like the Thornhill and Richmond Hill diversions, it also detours into downtown Markham, which only further discourages through commuters from further east from taking the service.

Could point regarding fewer stops, that actually probably does explain it to a certain degree; Most TTC routes with similar ridership also in the 5-10 min frequency so that doesn't differ too much. Just from my own experience on blue, off peak (including weekends) ridership is lower then your average TTC route for whatever reason.

It'll be interesting to see the changes to the ridership in 2015 (i.e. when the rapid way opens) ... time will tell !
 
As for the Purple, besides the fact that connections to it are utter crap, I think the construction bottleneck is chasing people away from it. I know if I commuted from Markham to York, I would find a way to the GO bus and take that instead. Like the Thornhill and Richmond Hill diversions, it also detours into downtown Markham, which only further discourages through commuters from further east from taking the service.

This is the case with me, personally. Until construction started, Viva Purple was actually fairly fast, because it could bypass congestion with the cue-jump lanes. But those were removed for construction so now the bus just sits in traffic.

I will be starting a job in the Hwy 7 high-tech area in a couple months, and I will almost certainly be driving. But the second the rapidway opens, I will be back on the bus.

Perhaps one more VIVA stop needs to be added, at Centre / Carl Tennsen, to make the service more useful for Thornhill?

Regarding the split service proposal: it can work during the peak time, but will create a problem off-peak. They will have to either run both branches off-peak when both will be very lightly used, or make one of the branches peak-only.

I think this idea works really well with the split route idea. It probably wouldn't be worth having a different express branch unless the time savings over the regular branch were significant enough that people wouldn't necessarily take the first bus that comes. And with separate branches, the impact of adding a stop in Thornhill would be less significant since people could just bypass it.

Just from my own experience on blue, off peak (including weekends) ridership is lower then your average TTC route for whatever reason.

I'm pretty sure the reason is that although the frequency along Yonge Street is fairly reasonable all day, the frequency of connecting routes is not. At rush hour, it is actually fairly practical to get around using YRT, but off-peak that ceases to be the case if any transfers are involved.

It'll be interesting to see the changes to the ridership in 2015 (i.e. when the rapid way opens) ... time will tell !

People are often complaining about how YRT is spending all its effort in the two intensification corridors, but I think that they will cause an increase in demand (and therefore frequency) in the cross routes as well. In Toronto, buse routes across the network have fairly reasonable frequencies all the time, and I'm fairly sure that people going to and from the subway make up a large part of the demand which supports that.
 
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I'm pretty sure the reason is that although the frequency along Yonge Street is fairly reasonable all day, the frequency of connecting routes is not. At rush hour, it is actually fairly practical to get around using YRT, but off-peak that ceases to be the case if any transfers are involved.

People are often complaining about how YRT is spending all its effort in the two intensification corridors, but I think that they will cause an increase in demand (and therefore frequency) in the cross routes as well. In Toronto, buse routes across the network have fairly reasonable frequencies all the time, and I'm fairly sure that people going to and from the subway make up a large part of the demand which supports that.

This is a key reason why Brampton Transit is growing ridership (and service) - the frequency of many of the cross-routes to the 3 Zum routes, themselves improvements and extensions of existing routes - have been bumped up to 30 minute minimums. The Route 4 isn't bad (but stuck with 27 minute, not 30 minute schedules), but there's no excuse why the 85 doesn't adhere to clockface, 30 minute 7 day a week schedules; same with the McCowan, Markham Road, Kennedy Road, 2 Denison, Davis Drive, Bathurst, Keele and Jane Street routes. If YRT was bold to say that 30 minute service, 18-19 hours a day (20 min minimum weekday afternoons, early evenings and day Saturday) was to be the core and minimum service level on these routes, ridership would grow and meet latent demand for the cross routes.

In Brampton, routes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 18, 29, 30, 51, 52, 53, 54 (plus 501/A) meet the TTC minimum standard for 30 minimum service, 7 days a week, 18 hours a day. Routes 23, 50, 502 and 511 also come close to this standard. For YRT, only routes 4, Blue, Orange and Purple meet this standard (a few come close, though the 85 and 88 end at 8:30 Sundays, and the 55 Davis has 40 minute Sunday/late evening service), and it's a larger system with bigger ridership and a bigger population.
 
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As for the Purple, besides the fact that connections to it are utter crap, I think the construction bottleneck is chasing people away from it. I know if I commuted from Markham to York, I would find a way to the GO bus and take that instead. Like the Thornhill and Richmond Hill diversions, it also detours into downtown Markham, which only further discourages through commuters from further east from taking the service.

This is true. Off-peak hours route 1 is far faster to go eastbound east of Warden since barely anyone gets on or off near Unionville. Not sure why they couldn't save the detour until the "downtown" there is actually built.

As for route 1. Say you're boarding at Town Centre. Prior to the construction I would have the luxury of picking either Purple or route 1 at the southwest stop at Town Centre and Highway 7 when commuting back home from work, whichever comes first. Now they expect the poor saps taking route 1 to pick between running to the temporary stop #6488 one half block east of Highway 7 for just the route 1 users (why over there? why not put it at the intersection itself?) or settling with the TC Viva stop which is now a bit south of Highway 7.

Also riding purple eastbound from around Valleymede all the way to Valleymede... forgive me for being highly skeptical of the whole point of this rapidway when barely anyone is on the purple bus around off-peak hours?
 
This is true. Off-peak hours route 1 is far faster to go eastbound east of Warden since barely anyone gets on or off near Unionville. Not sure why they couldn't save the detour until the "downtown" there is actually built.

As for route 1. Say you're boarding at Town Centre. Prior to the construction I would have the luxury of picking either Purple or route 1 at the southwest stop at Town Centre and Highway 7 when commuting back home from work, whichever comes first. Now they expect the poor saps taking route 1 to pick between running to the temporary stop #6488 one half block east of Highway 7 for just the route 1 users (why over there? why not put it at the intersection itself?) or settling with the TC Viva stop which is now a bit south of Highway 7.

Also riding purple eastbound from around Valleymede all the way to Valleymede... forgive me for being highly skeptical of the whole point of this rapidway when barely anyone is on the purple bus around off-peak hours?

In regards to the detour, it's because of the GO station connection. Viva tries to connect to as many transit hubs as possible, and so they wanted to make the connection to Unionville GO.

As for the point of the rapidway, the intent is to transform Hwy 7 into more of a destination in of itself, rather than a means to get to destinations elsewhere. If they liven up the atmosphere and make it more pedestrian friendly, they're hoping businesses will follow in making their storefronts pedestrian friendly, and off-peak ridership follows when there's things to do other than commute through the area.
 
Apparently YRT is starting their public consultations for their upcoming changes.

http://yrt.ca/en/aboutus/serviceplanning.asp#PIC

A couple of things I want to ask them:

1. Seeing as most of the changes in the Richmond Hill area appear to be cuts in service quality, I'm wondering if I should expect fares to remain static over the next 12-24 months? I understand that there is a need to match service quality with ridership, but we always hear politicians talking about "investing in transit" and this is the exact opposite. As the old saying goes, transit sucks because no one takes it, and no one takes it because it sucks. Time to stop saying silly catchphrases because it is populist and sexy, and put your money where your mouth is and provide a semi-usable service!

2. I wonder if they understand what cutting the Leslie and Elgin Mills portions of the 90 route will do to ridership? I don't take it very often, but it has come in handy as sort of a 'Yonge by-pass' back home. If I recall, a lot of people travelled through the Leslie and Elgin Mills intersection rather than it being a major on/off stop, though that may have changed since. I would at least look to have a branch of the route run during rush hour.
 
Looks like it's time to start paying for that huge bill that the busways has racked up. While browsing through the pdfs, there were at times I was wishing that VIVA failed to show how stupid YRT is with cutting service (direct\indirect).
 
Brutal. YRT's service levels are going to make a third-tier US city's transit system look good.

Viva Orange is being decimated - why even bother operating it off-peak? The plan is cut Orange to run only between Pine Valley Road and York University off-peak, and reduce service to as bad as every 42 minutes. That screws Woodbridge nicely. Last year when they cut service on Viva Orange, they would supposedly integrate the schedule with Brampton Zum 501, which is every 30 minutes on Highway 7 (split with 501A in Brampton for 15-minute service). Forget that, why not just give up on the idea of off-peak Orange, and get people to use 77 and 501.

Route 10 goes from every 38 to 75 minutes evenings. Why even bother?

The only part of the plan I like is the re-routing of Viva Green on a direct north-south route up Leslie Street.
 
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Viva Orange is being decimated - why even bother operating it off-peak? The plan is cut Orange to run only between Pine Valley Road and York University off-peak, and reduce service to as bad as every 42 minutes. That screws Woodbridge nicely. Last year when they cut service on Viva Orange, they would supposedly integrate the schedule with Brampton Zum 501, which is every 30 minutes on Highway 7 (split with 501A in Brampton for 15-minute service). Forget that, why not just give up on the idea of off-peak Orange, and get people to use 77 and 501.

Are we reading the same document? I have http://www.yrt.ca/en/aboutus/resources/2013_ASP_4.9_Vaughan.pdf, pages 103 and 104.

These pages only talk about eliminating off-peak service between York U and Downsview. The west end remains at Martin Grove, both at peak and off-peak. Also, the new service level is 18 or 19 min; this is not great, but much better than 42 min.
 
Are we reading the same document? I have http://www.yrt.ca/en/aboutus/resources/2013_ASP_4.9_Vaughan.pdf, pages 103 and 104.

These pages only talk about eliminating off-peak service between York U and Downsview. The west end remains at Martin Grove, both at peak and off-peak. Also, the new service level is 18 or 19 min; this is not great, but much better than 42 min.

I went looking at the new 2014 plans that YRT is now starting consultations on:
http://yrt.ca/en/aboutus/serviceplanning.asp#PIC

The VIVA corridors are in Part 3, that's where it mentions hacking away further at Viva Orange and rerouting Green.
 
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Significant service cuts all around - sad, but that's been the story for YRT for many years now. It's almost hard to believe that this is an agency that launched a $180 million BRT service a few years back and is spending even more hundreds of millions building transitways for said BRT service.
 
It seems like ever since YRT hired ex-MBTA Richard Leary its been always service cuts. Whatever slightest improvements that were made were reversed outright.
 
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At this rate will the rapidways ever become LRT lines as proposed for the future? Or will they be built but at the expense of the base YRT network?

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VIVA orange kills me. Last year they killed off peak service to Downsview, I mean come on I know there are TTC routes to downsview but that is a clear trip generator for that route. Now they kill the western end off in off peak. Sheesh, really the fact that they won't run Orange out to the industrial expansion zone they designated around hwy's 27/427/50 shows that even they realize that the expansion zone will not be a major trip generator despite the number of jobs they plan to have there. The old, and new terminii for that matter, are not great terminal points for a rapid transit route, why not at least run the line down to Humber College or Pearson airport then at least you would have some kind of anchor for the terminal.
 
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Talk about death by a thousand cuts.

Brampton's going to have their own service planning consultations in mid-April for September 2013. I won't be in the country at the time, but they usually have the presentation boards online. Since this is the first year Brampton won't be introducing a Zum route, I'm curious if it is going to be more improvements, a stay the course (with changes to serve new subdivisions), or a YRT-style bloodletting.
 

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