[innsertnamehere]

I still think the Davis BRT is a huge waste of money. Ridership on that corridor will always be abysmal. was it a vote buying exercise or something? that money would be much better spent making the highway 7 BRT run further east than Kennedy.

 

[taal]

I still think the Davis BRT is a huge waste of money. Ridership on that corridor will always be abysmal. was it a vote buying exercise or something? that money would be much better spent making the highway 7 BRT run further east than Kennedy.

X 10000, I get mad when I see that ... its a huge waste, I don't care whatever development comes if any given the huge amount of nibyism that'll occur there.

You know, there is a lot of talk about how politics play a huge and generally negative role in regards to development in Toronto (particularly transit oriented) but the same happens in the 905 ...

 

[ShonTron]

I still think the Davis BRT is a huge waste of money. Ridership on that corridor will always be abysmal. was it a vote buying exercise or something? that money would be much better spent making the highway 7 BRT run further east than Kennedy.

The thing is, ridership on Davis Drive shouldn't be abysmal - it has the mall, the main northern YRT hub, a major hospital and the GO station and is the main east-west corridor in Newmarket. Though I agree that the Rapidway there is overkill.

 

[canarob]

I still think the Davis BRT is a huge waste of money. Ridership on that corridor will always be abysmal. was it a vote buying exercise or something? that money would be much better spent making the highway 7 BRT run further east than Kennedy.

X 10000, I get mad when I see that ... its a huge waste, I don't care whatever development comes if any given the huge amount of nibyism that'll occur there. You know, there is a lot of talk about how politics play a huge and generally negative role in regards to development in Toronto (particularly transit oriented) but the same happens in the 905 ...

The thing is, ridership on Davis Drive shouldn't be abysmal - it has the mall, the main northern YRT hub, a major hospital and the GO station and is the main east-west corridor in Newmarket. Though I agree that the Rapidway there is overkill.

Agree 100% that it was all about the votes. Davis should have decent bus service, but Highway 7 east of Kennedy is far, far busier (really the BRT should continue on 7 between Warden and Kennedy as well). We have a major mall, a major hospital, two GO stations (not directly connected to VIVA but walkable), not to mention close to (or more than?) the entire population of Newmarket lives in East Markham. But as I've said before, running pink to Cornell and building the Cornell terminal would be a good start, but that's not even in the 2017 plan.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It's probably fair to say it's mostly about the votes but, in fairness:
-As others have noted, there are lots of transit, shopping and other hubs there. Traffic is typically a mess around the hospital so getting better transit at least made sense.

-Remote as it may seem, Newmarket is a designated Places to Grow node. Putting the transit there was a necessity if you want to see redevelopment. There's already a decent start with a sort of campus around the hospital and Yonge Street is starting to see some proposals too so, it's working in that sense. Some of the retail in that corridor is just textbook redevelopment land.

-When there are more people living up there, there will be more ridership and (one hopes) Newmarket will be a bit more and a bit less bedroom community-y.

-There was already some NIMBYism with the Slessor Square development proposal but nothing insurmountable and (no offence to local residents) some of the areas along that corridor are not the most wealthy or influential. I would expect typical NIMBYism but not enough to slow progress. I'd be more concerned about getting those strip malls and car dealerships turned into condos than the ridership, per se. If those come along, the ridership should follow.

 

[doady]

I just think that after 2017 (and to a large extent right now) ultimately most people will end up riding on VIVA for part of their trip, no matter where they're going in York Region. I also don't have all that much sympathy for people who chose to live in sprawly subdivisions around 14th or Major Mac or wherever. Most of the major intensification and population growth (aside from northern Vaughan and places like Stouffville) will be along the VIVA corridors. I'm not suggesting further cuts (nor did I support the cuts that have occurred) to these non-core routes, but the region is absolutely right in my opinion to focus on major corridors and transit-oriented development. Without that strong backbone, what's the point of having more frequent service to neighbourhoods that have nothing other than houses?

VIVA itself serves rural and low density exurban neighbourhoods too. And a route like VIVA Green is not exactly a strong backbone. How many different corridors does VIVA Green service? Doesn't seem focused to me. People in York Region mostly live in houses, I think the poor ridership of VIVA and YRT overall reflects that. To ignore actual travel demand and development patterns, that's another problem with VIVA.

Maybe it's not just the concept of VIVA that's the problem, but also maybe it was just too soon. If YRT developed a more comprehensive system like Mississauga and Brampton did (before Zum) to prepare for VIVA, then maybe it wouldn't be experiencing these problems. MiExpress and Zum were rolled out much later than VIVA, and more gradually, at lower cost, reinforcing the rest of the network instead of cannibalizing it. I think that's the approach YRT should have taken. YRT was just not ready for 5 new frequent all-day express bus routes all at once. And let's not forget that VIVA itself has seen massive service cuts.

We can talk about facilitating transit-oriented development, but people in York Region are literally becoming less transit-oriented (ridership is falling). There is some effort at intensification, but I don't see how that's different from what Mississauga has been doing on a much larger scale without a VIVA-style system. Both Mississauga and Brampton have seen better ridership and service growth than York Region since 2005 (the introduction of VIVA). I think that is ultimately what shapes development.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Maybe it's not just the concept of VIVA that's the problem, but also maybe it was just too soon. If YRT developed a more comprehensive system like Mississauga and Brampton did (before Zum) to prepare for VIVA, then maybe it wouldn't be experiencing these problems. MiExpress and Zum were rolled out much later than VIVA, and more gradually, at lower cost, reinforcing the rest of the network instead of cannibalizing it. I think that's the approach YRT should have taken. YRT was just not ready for 5 new frequent all-day express bus routes all at once. And let's not forget that VIVA itself has seen massive service cuts.

We can talk about facilitating transit-oriented development, but people in York Region are literally becoming less transit-oriented (ridership is falling). There is some effort at intensification, but I don't see how that's different from what Mississauga has been doing on a much larger scale without a VIVA-style system. Both Mississauga and Brampton have seen better ridership and service growth than York Region since 2005 (the introduction of VIVA). I think that is ultimately what shapes development.

Those are all fair points but these services are operating in different contexts. Mississauga Transit doesn't have to serve an area like Georgina, does it? Mississauga already had a downtown (if a fairly diffuse, undeveloped one) whereas York Region is nearly starting from scratch. It's not their fault that's where they were when the new planning regime and transit funding came down. So, yeah, maybe it's too much to soon but I still take that over Toronto's "too little too late" approach.

It may be that the big gamble with Viva is that, as you kind of point out, it's designed to serve a speculative, future population more than the existing one.

Even if ridership is falling (which I'm not certain is true; only GROWTH is slowing), the population is still growing and if they end up at Yonge and 7 instead of Teston and Pine Valley, Viva will be fine. That may be a big IF, but that's the premise.

 

[doady]

YRT ridership is declining. See my posts on previous page.

I don't think Georgina is a big part of that. Those two routes are probably not even 1% of YRT service. Close to 90% of population is Markahm, Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Aurora, Newmarket. Are those two Georgina routes really bringing YRT down?

I think the real obstacle for YRT is the length of the Toronto boundary and connecting to the TTC and integrating with TTC. York Region is far more dependent on the TTC than either Mississauga or Brampton, the population is concentrated along the border, so the poor connection and integration is more detrimental. Also, YRT provides no Steeles service, and as far as I know YRT riders must pay extra to use the TTC Steeles buses. The Steeles corridor seems like a very important transit corridor for York Region, but it's missing from the YRT network.

 

[Dandy Horse]

... building transit AHEAD of development is actually a good idea, IMHO.

Ok. Can you please show us an example where this has worked?

 

[innsertnamehere]

New York, albeit 80 years ago. I am more concerned with getting transit to areas that already have demand, however.

 

[canarob]

I think the real obstacle for YRT is the length of the Toronto boundary and connecting to the TTC and integrating with TTC. York Region is far more dependent on the TTC than either Mississauga or Brampton, the population is concentrated along the border, so the poor connection and integration is more detrimental. Also, YRT provides no Steeles service, and as far as I know YRT riders must pay extra to use the TTC Steeles buses. The Steeles corridor seems like a very important transit corridor for York Region, but it's missing from the YRT network.

Having both TTC and YRT service Steeles could be problematic, but I've always wondered if it would make sense for YRT to do some bigger local "loop routes." For example, a route that went along Steeles from Markham Road to Kennedy that would connect to Milliken GO, Pacific Mall, Unionville GO (and eventually Downtown Markham cinemas and retail), Markville Mall (and Centennial GO by going through Bullock like the GO bus), Main Street (and Markham GO), etc. The "local routes" such as the 41 (http://www.yrt.ca/en/schedulesmaps/resources/41.pdf) really only serve to get people in one neighbourhood to one mall and Main Street. A route like the above would connect to so many more destinations.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Ok. Can you please show us an example where this has worked?

Google "Streetcar suburbs."

Besides, 65 years ago you might have asked for examples of communities built around the car and there wouldn't have been any precedents, because that's how things go. This is the new thing (though, as I just pointed out, also, not).

And I agree Steeles is a huge problem. It's one that won't get solved without Metrolinx imposing a new, regional fare structure. When that might happen, I haven't a clue.

 

[canarob]

Now that the Bloor-Danforth line will be extended all the way up to McCowan and Sheppard, what are the chances that YRT will reconfigure some of their routes or contracted service to reflect this? It would be great if there was something other than the McCowan bus to connect to this new station.

 

[gweed123]

Now that the Bloor-Danforth line will be extended all the way up to McCowan and Sheppard, what are the chances that YRT will reconfigure some of their routes or contracted service to reflect this? It would be great if there was something other than the McCowan bus to connect to this new station.

Would be nice to see a VIVA route running from Unionville to McCowan & Sheppard. I would venture to say it would be even more popular than the VIVA Green route to Don Mills.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Not that viva green is popular in any way whatsoever...