Allandale25
Senior Member
I realize this was posted in the GO Service thread but posting it here as well: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...rry-transportation-all-day-2-way-go-1.4638523
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- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
Cut hydro bills by 12% WTF? The Liberals are spending about $5 billion a year (according to the auditor) to subsidize them to the same levels they were at in 2010 ... and that's not enough for the supposedly fiscally-conservative PCs who want to subsidize them by 12 more percent?
Why not just make them free? What's this obsession on hydro rates, when my house insurance rates have doubled in 15 years, and my phone and cable rates have gone way up to? (not that I favour government subsidies and nationalize unlike the left-wing PCs ... !?! )
Why not just make them free? What's this obsession on hydro rates, when my house insurance rates have doubled in 15 years, and my phone and cable rates have gone way up to? (not that I favour government subsidies and nationalize unlike the left-wing PCs ... !?! )
crs1026
Superstar
I would nitpick this a little..... being book smart is not necessarily better than being street smart. I doubt Doug reads much, but he is very quick on his feet in a fight, or towards an opportunity. Don't underestimate that.
The old saying: "when the going gets tough, the weird turn pro" applies.
- Paul
crs1026
Superstar
Sorry, I'm a conspiracy theorist on this one. The fact that is was buried doesn't mean he didn't know it was there. I'm confident that the sale was the result of the usual interplay between Etobicoke Councillors and developers and the local small business types. Who needs council chambers when you have bars on Bloor Street ? That's how politics works in Etobicoke.
- Paul
drum118
Superstar
Low hanging fruit.
narduch
Senior Member
Sorry but considering all the promises the Liberals made the last few weeks and the Attorney General questioning their accounting their criticism is hollow.
TransitBart
Senior Member
Or corrupt. Or insane. Or ... what? From the fiscal conservatives...
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Some mistakes were indeed made that skyrocketed bills but fixing the problem going forward -- If only there was a much easier way to give no-cost hassle-free upgrades to people paying high three-figure and four-figure electric bills to fix their homes for efficiency -- that might be a more efficient spend of a small portion of the billions.
I can still tolerate the electricity rates. The air is noticeably cleaner without Nanticoke smogging GTHA killing me bit by bit with bronchitis.
I've got natgas stove/heating plus I've LED-dified/EnergyStarred out my home, so in the winter I pay more for natgas than electricity, and in the summer I pay more for water than electricity. But there are so many people paying tons for electricity, being their biggest bill all 12 months of the year.
While there are many options now (LED bulbs are subsidized to the point now that you can get them for 50 cents each at Canadian Tire nowadays -- they now pay for themselves in less than 48 hours of peak electricity rates. Not to mention my air conditioning electricity cost HALVED when my whole house was virtually entirely replaced by LED. Those old incandescent bulbs are househeaters that double air conditioning electricity use in the summer). But the difficult upgrades like converting electric heat to natgas heat, is exhorbitant or not available (no natgas service) and options free/cheap groundpumped heat needs to be considered as part of the equation.
For those who can't get natgas, the government(s) (I can't recall if fed/prov/both) already gives you up to more than ~$4000 to help you upgrade to heatpump replacing old oil heating or electric heating, but for many homeowners it's still too much hassle, does not pay all labour costs, inconvenient for many homeowners and not an option for apartment renters / house renters / etc.
Homes with electric-everything with kids (dryers, stoves, ovens, elec heating) have the quadruple-whammy effect that I simply don't have, and these people need help more than I do.
Electricity bills doesn't have to be the biggest household bill (it's not for me, and I have a 2500sqft detached 4-bed house with finished basement) but it's not an easy bill to reduce. Still, I think we've hit darn near Peak Electricity Rates (inflation adjusted), and the cost of installing new generating power (e.g. wind) is potentially now profitable for far less than today's electricity rates. This cost messes we've created (debts, expensive subsidies, etc) needs to be fixed even if we disagree how to fix them.
I'd rather see 25% + 12% electricity bill reductions go to help other people than me, other people need the bill reductions much more badly than I do. So the promises to reduce my own electricity bills does not affect me in the same way as for others.
Now I am getting offtopic, this is the Promises thread, and there could be tension on monies allocated between things like Hydro and Transportation, and this is always a tough topic as they are both good goals to fight towards (the devil is in the details on exactly how to balance the needs) given the corner Ontario has been backed into.
My big concern is huge increases to hydro subsidies is "too blanket" and may hurt transit/transportation initatives. There are people like me who don't need either the Ontario Liberal 25% or the Ontario PC 37% (25%+12%) and prefer that to help the most fiscal struggling instead to reduce bills. Bigger reduction in costs for families who need the reductions the most. Hydro is often is used as an excuse to cancel transit initiatives, and is not something I'd like to see happen.
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crs1026
Superstar
^ I would rather pay my Hydro bill now in full, than pay part of it now and pay part later or through taxation.
As to why Hydro costs are so high, there is a long sad story of reasons, all of them attributable to governments of the day
- Mike Harris drove up labour costs in the old Ontario Hydro, ironically, because a) he needed to buy peace with labour unions to support an IPO and b) because he needed to attract executives from the private sector who had the profit/loss experience to lead a company through the transition to IPO. When the IPO was cancelled, there was no easy way to reverse these changes
- The Green Energy initiative was badly implemented, with contracted wind and power operators holding the bargaining leverage in power contracts
- Coal was cheaper than gas and wind, so price was intrinsically escalated as coal was phased out
- The gas plant cancellation fiasco cost a chunk of change
- Both Harris and McGinty (and Wynne) repositioned Hydro as a revenue stream for provincial spending, similar to LCBO and soon cannabis, away from the traditional Sir Adam Beck model of 'power for the people at cost'
- To keep rates low, maintenance and capital programs were cut back, which eventually bit the province in the behind, leading to peak spending to restore state of good repair - especially as infrastructure such as nuclear plants aged
- As all of this unfolded, government attempted more and more convoluted pricing and subsidy models to moderate the impact on the customer (I'm being kind, it was actually to hide their misdeeds)
There being no free lunch, I would rather just get the full bill and put all of the above front and center.
The voter should be furious with how Ontario manages electricity. And don't blame Liberals alone, while they completely bobbled the file they inherited messes from Harris also.
- Paul
As to why Hydro costs are so high, there is a long sad story of reasons, all of them attributable to governments of the day
- Mike Harris drove up labour costs in the old Ontario Hydro, ironically, because a) he needed to buy peace with labour unions to support an IPO and b) because he needed to attract executives from the private sector who had the profit/loss experience to lead a company through the transition to IPO. When the IPO was cancelled, there was no easy way to reverse these changes
- The Green Energy initiative was badly implemented, with contracted wind and power operators holding the bargaining leverage in power contracts
- Coal was cheaper than gas and wind, so price was intrinsically escalated as coal was phased out
- The gas plant cancellation fiasco cost a chunk of change
- Both Harris and McGinty (and Wynne) repositioned Hydro as a revenue stream for provincial spending, similar to LCBO and soon cannabis, away from the traditional Sir Adam Beck model of 'power for the people at cost'
- To keep rates low, maintenance and capital programs were cut back, which eventually bit the province in the behind, leading to peak spending to restore state of good repair - especially as infrastructure such as nuclear plants aged
- As all of this unfolded, government attempted more and more convoluted pricing and subsidy models to moderate the impact on the customer (I'm being kind, it was actually to hide their misdeeds)
There being no free lunch, I would rather just get the full bill and put all of the above front and center.
The voter should be furious with how Ontario manages electricity. And don't blame Liberals alone, while they completely bobbled the file they inherited messes from Harris also.
- Paul
nfitz
Superstar
After 7 years of rate freezes, when the taxpayers have to pay for the subsidies?
The province has the power to regulate other prices. Such as natural gas prices - and even gasoline at the pump (all the province has to do is pay the subsidy).
If only there was someone regulating my water costs - which have increased far more than hydro. Good grief, my house insurance cost is now on par with my hydro costs, and it was about 50% of the hydro a decade or so ago.
Of all the mountains to die on ... and as far as I can see, only the Green party is not hiking this particular mountain.
Neutrino
Senior Member
What? You realize that every politician has drive to get to the levels that they do.
steveintoronto
Superstar
There's a massive problem with the logic of your otherwise very sensible post: User efficiency is almost completely irrelevant to showing a lower bill. Many of the costs don't reflect the *amount used* at all. They represent *fixed costs*. It's become so skewed that last time I was independently paying for Hydro, (my costs have been buried for the last six years or so included in rent) and after taking drastic steps to cut my hydro bill by pretty much halving usage (I'm a tech, it's easy for me to calculate and implement this), it made *virtually no difference* to the bill!
Where is the incentive for people to economize by efficiency when there's so little to show for it? Altruistically, I get it. Financially, and that's what counts for most people, I don't. Neither will they.
I'm absolutely terrified of a Ford Fairlame convertible with bent rims being the official car of Queen's Park, but it's only a case of jumping into the fire to escape the scalding pot with the Lib drib on electricity rates.
That being said, electricity is still cheap by world terms. It doesn't mean the Libs haven't completely bungled it, just that every alarm goes off when Ford crankshaft seizes his bearings trying to affect a differential on top.
nfitz
Superstar
Not to the level of corruption and lying that Drug Fraud does. And not smart lies either - just quick and lazy ones.
BurlOak
Senior Member
So your saying Ford's lies are slips of the tongue because he can't recall the exact truth, but Wynne's lies are fully thought through and premeditated.