[drum118]

In Europe, freight is 2nd class and only starting to meet NA standards.

The longest freight train I saw was 45 cars with most having single axial at each end compare to our duel at both ends. Then there is the coupling system that time consuming for making up or breaking a train down. Moving toward automictic couplers now. All intermodal is single level with the 1950 style open car double deck as auto racks. Height of tunnels and curves for out dated rolling stock compare NA standards. Europe is only starting to catchup with NA on various type of rolling stock that been in service for decades. We use square box frames for passenger cars while Europe use curves for double deck cars that has an impact on tall riders who sit by the window.

NA is overkill on passenger equipment and why it more costly to build and run them here compare to Europe.

Both the FRA and Transport Canada requirements for DMU, EMU and passenger equipment are dictated by the RR since they don't like passenger trains and why they kill them off decades ago. Passenger train of any type doesn't make money light freight does.

Even how we build transit projects even for GO, is over kill and not required in the first place.

 

[robmausser]

This is no longer the case in the US. FRA rules have changed a few years back to systematically allow EMUs like the Caltrain one pictured.

Thats just simply not true. Caltrain had to apply for a waiver. You can see it here

http://www.tillier.net/stuff/caltrain/Caltrain_Waiver_Request_20180705.pdf

 

[Bordercollie]

So how do you apply the emergency brake manually on them if there is no handle? Is there such a thing as a manual brake handle for subway cars?

 

[Undead]

In Europe, freight is 2nd class and only starting to meet NA standards.

The longest freight train I saw was 45 cars with most having single axial at each end compare to our duel at both ends. Then there is the coupling system that time consuming for making up or breaking a train down. Moving toward automictic couplers now. All intermodal is single level with the 1950 style open car double deck as auto racks. Height of tunnels and curves for out dated rolling stock compare NA standards. Europe is only starting to catchup with NA on various type of rolling stock that been in service for decades. We use square box frames for passenger cars while Europe use curves for double deck cars that has an impact on tall riders who sit by the window.

NA is overkill on passenger equipment and why it more costly to build and run them here compare to Europe.

Both the FRA and Transport Canada requirements for DMU, EMU and passenger equipment are dictated by the RR since they don't like passenger trains and why they kill them off decades ago. Passenger train of any type doesn't make money light freight does.

Even how we build transit projects even for GO, is over kill and not required in the first place.

So Europe is ahead in passenger rail and North America in freight?

 

[dowlingm]

FRA Reform is Here!

Six and a half years ago, the Federal Railroad Administration announced that it was going to revise its passenger train regulations. The old regulations required trains to be unusually heavy, wreck…

pedestrianobservations.com

I didn't say Caltrain was procured without waiver but that the rules have changed to allow systematic procurement of EMUs like the Caltrain one pictured.

Difficult to compare the US passenger landscape to Canada’s for these purposes until Metrolinx and their host railroads implement Positive Train Control, surely.

 

[drum118]

So Europe is ahead in passenger rail and North America in freight?

Yep!...........They are now moving to 700 meter long freight trains being able to do the max speed of existing line and being allow on HSR corridor with speed to match passenger trains in the HSR corridors. Short train today deal with the lack of power to pull long trains as well couplers not able to handle longer trains.

They are now running trains from one country to another as through trains with different gauges using wheel gauge changers to move from one system to another like they do for passenger trains.

The first time seeing a freight train really floor me as well others I saw. Even when I visited some manufacture plants was still an eye opening experience based on the freight cars I have seen all my life in NA.

My first ride using passenger trains before 2012 was a mix bag of speed and equipment, but the ride on the TVG was more than I was expecting and was looking forward to riding the various new systems and equipment in 2012. Even my 2012 trip was a mix bag from 100 km to 320 km with a lot of short distances of 100-160 km as part of the new HSR line wasn't 100% complete at the time.

Even though Europe is well a head of us on passenger trains let alone transit, they lack AC for the summer months along with 60 year plus rolling stock in poor shape. A fair number were worse than the old equipment found on VIA and Amtrak.

One thing that stands out is the motor-powered that have cabs at both end and reduce the need to having 2 loco's when changing directions like we do consider a large number were built in NA especially at the London ON plant. Always visited the plant to see if I could catch one of these locomotive before being wrap and ship to the docks.

 

[Undead]

^Thanks for the insight! Did I understand correctly - Europe has high(er) speed freight moving at well over 100 km/h? Our freight moves way slower, but IIRC our trains are 6x longer (4km vs. 700m) with double stacks and dual axis like you mentioned.

 

[smallspy]

^Thanks for the insight! Did I understand correctly - Europe has high(er) speed freight moving at well over 100 km/h? Our freight moves way slower, but IIRC our trains are 6x longer (4km vs. 700m) with double stacks and dual axis like you mentioned.

It's....complicated.

Drum118 is correct in that the new standards on Continental Europe are for 700m freight trains running at closer to passenger train speeds - 75mph is the goal where possible.

But so far, there are only a small number of lines that are actually capable of this. The focus is on the Ten-T network to start, as these have all be identified as the main pan-European mainlines.

As for North America, yes, our loading gauge is considerably larger. This allows our rolling stock to be larger as well. And as for speeds, well....while most people have visions of things like long coal trains plodding along, the reality is something different. Most mainline freight train speeds are 65 or 70mph, and historically UP and Santa Fe ran special, priority freights as fast as 90mph.

In fact, it is faster to travel from Vancouver to Toronto in a container than it is on a passenger train. (Although in fairness, that's as much of an indictment of the state of our passenger railway as it is a proclamation of superiority of our freight trains.)

Dan

 

[drum118]

Grades in Europe have more impact on speed and length of trains than NA. Even passenger trains are effected by these conditions and why new tunnels are being built to deal with the conditions that are very costly and long time to build. Existing tunnels play a big part on the length and height of cars as well the type of cars and carrying capacity.

I watched a 300 double stack train leave a yard in the US back in 2019 and the longest I have every seen. Then watching a number of BN 150 to 175 double stack trains doing the climb in AZ at high speed was great that had power front mid and rear. Was plan on spending a few hours at a location, but caught a few before service stop so MoW work to take place down the line from where the martial was store at the location I was watching.

Will add this as AAR oppose electrifying lines and this effects Metrolinx attempts to electrify their network 100% for service.

Don’t Dismiss Freight Rail Electrification​

 

[Bordercollie]

Grades in Europe have more impact on speed and length of trains than NA. Even passenger trains are effected by these conditions and why new tunnels are being built to deal with the conditions that are very costly and long time to build. Existing tunnels play a big part on the length and height of cars as well the type of cars and carrying capacity.

I watched a 300 double stack train leave a yard in the US back in 2019 and the longest I have every seen. Then watching a number of BN 150 to 175 double stack trains doing the climb in AZ at high speed was great that had power front mid and rear. Was plan on spending a few hours at a location, but caught a few before service stop so MoW work to take place down the line from where the martial was store at the location I was watching.

Will add this as AAR oppose electrifying lines and this effects Metrolinx attempts to electrify their network 100% for service.

Don’t Dismiss Freight Rail Electrification​

When trains exceed a certain length, they wont fit into sidings so when it approaches a single track zone, if both trains exceed the siding length, that becomes a problem. Perhaps allowing certain trans to be faster than other may be a possibility but it comes down to regulatory issues and better track maintenance.

 

[drum118]

When trains exceed a certain length, they wont fit into sidings so when it approaches a single track zone, if both trains exceed the siding length, that becomes a problem. Perhaps allowing certain trans to be faster than other may be a possibility but it comes down to regulatory issues and better track maintenance.

Length of trains and sidings have been an issues almost since day one world wide. There has been many cases where one train can't pass another as either both are too long or the one in the sidings is. Some of these issues are caused dispatchers not planning the route right to wrong info pertaining to the length of a train and sidings. One of the downfalls of trying to get away with single track in place of double tracks.

Saw a case where rules had to be broken to get the longer train for the siding to get pass the opposite direction one.

Because trains are increasing in lengths, lots of single tracks with sidings are either seeing sidings been extended for more than the longest train length to being double 100%. Some of these single track lines were double at one time and due to declining of trains due to mergers, they became single track or taken out of service. Over the years and the need to move more trains, out of service tracks have been put back into service as well improvement to the single tracks. This is more NA than Europe.

Europe as far as I know has never had long trains like NA with passenger trains about 20 cars long. Unlike NA, freight cars were not long using single axles. its only in the last decade of so cars are becoming longer with duel axles.

Since a lot of Europe tracks are in the mountains, length of sidings and able to double track is an issues. A lot of new freight locomotive are in the range of 120-160km speed wise. The last mile duel power is only 100-120 km.

The big issue can freight cars handle high speed in the first place?? The answer is no regardless Europe or NA. Intermodal come the closes in NA in the 60 mile range with systems lookin at the 70's, but requiring track to be maintained better than now. Have said that, China is looking at a 320 km freight train now as short trains. Then there is the 180 kilometres per hour, operated my Mercitalia in Italy.

 

[Allandale25]

Video of the townhall. The last response to a question (in the last 5 min) provides some insight on the 401 bridge. It sounds like it will have two tracks, be to the west of the existing CP bridge, and then crossover using a diamond to head east.

Virtual Townhall On Go Train Expansion

MPP Lindsey Park, Member of Provincial Parliament for Durham, will be joined by Metrolinx President & CEO Phil Verster. It will be an opportunity for you to hear directly from Metrolinx on the Bowmanville GO Train Expansion Project.

rogerstv.com

This is my very rough attempt to visualize what was said in the last 5 minutes for how the GO Bowmanville Extension will cross the 401 and then cross at a diamond the CP GM spur. I'm not a civil engineer and as you can't see I only have rough paint skills. Just an informal attempt for discussion purposes. Given the talk during the townhall of providing less parking and working with developers/landowners, I wonder if the Thornton's Corners GO Station (now called Thornton's Corner's East in the IBC). One aspect I haven't considered is the description of Option 2 which says CN's Kingston Sub needs to be briefly utilized? cc @crs1026 @smallspy

As with Option 1, this alignment requires the consent and approval of track owners and other impacted parties. In this option CP as well as CN, VIA and Hydro One would have to be consulted and approvals will be required. This is due to GO’s need to operate on CP’s Belleville Subdivision and briefly utilize CN’s Kingston Subdivision east of Oshawa GO Station in order to reach the GM Spur. Agreements will also be required with VIA Rail for modifications to the existing Oshawa GO Station and Hydro One due to impacts on above ground hydro services in the vicinity of the Highway 401 crossing. Further, clearance from the new top of rail to the underside of Hydro One’s power lines will need to be confirmed to ensure adequate distance is provided.

Page 68

I also wonder if there will be a desire to have the Thornton's Crossing East Station to the east of the GM spur track/new GO tracks (light blue or blue). It appears if the station is on the west side, CP is worried about car traffic and people rushing to the station on the west side given this line in the IBC: "Additional grade separations are requested by CP in this area, a road-under-rail grade separation on Thornton Road South and one rail-rail separation where Metrolinx’s new track would pass under CP’s wye track to the GM plant south of Highway 401 connecting into the Belleville Subdivision." (page 63)

Legend:
Options for crossing the 401 in light blue, dark blue, and purple, hydro towers in yellow, road extension per the Official Plan on PDF page 398. White box possible station and parking lot locations.

Just as a comparison for the former Thornton's Corner GO Station, here's Option 1 and the "Overview of the 2016 announced GO - CP 401 rail connection (new connecting track in red)" (page 17). There is a long description on pages 17-18 on how this option would have cause track movement conflicts with the Whitby Rail Maintenance Facility to the east. [map rotated below so that the CN/VIA line and the 401 have a similar orientation to the map above]

There isn't a detailed description for Thornton's Corners East in the IBC. Did does say on page 39: "Note that the new Thornton’s Corners East Station would not offer park and ride spaces; rather focusing on providing bus loop, cycling and Pick Up Drop Off (PPUDO) infrastructure."

 

[crs1026]

This is my very rough attempt to visualize what was said in the last 5 minutes for how the GO Bowmanville Extension will cross the 401 and then cross at a diamond the CP GM spur. I'm not a civil engineer and as you can't see I only have rough paint skills. Just an informal attempt for discussion purposes. Given the talk during the townhall of providing less parking and working with developers/landowners, I wonder if the Thornton's Corners GO Station (now called Thornton's Corner's East in the IBC). One aspect I haven't considered is the description of Option 2 which says CN's Kingston Sub needs to be briefly utilized? cc @crs1026 @smallspy

I take that reference to the Kingston Sub to refer to the "sacrifice" of the northernmost VIA platform, which no longer can be reached from the platform to the north. The more CN can shift to the south, the easier that curve and gradient up over the 401 can be. Just a guess.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

^ Ah, good point. The track starts here and ends just east of the exiting pedestrian bridge.

 

[Reecemartin]

Our latest video dives into progress on Toronto’s 401/409 Regional Rail Tunnel, this expansion project will be transformative in enabling more rail service on this corridor.