dowlingm
Senior Member
as a condition of VIA being able to operate over the parts that are extant, no?
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Don’t you think that taking the financial responsibility for track maintenance and property tax payments off their shoulder and allowing them to operate their freight service at a fraction of their current labor costs (resulting from speeds up to 80 mph rather than the current 15-20 mph) be enough incentives to surrender that segment in exchange for tracking rights on these existing tracks? Also, the Eastern half would need to be so aggressively banked that inserting freight trains would exacerbate wear and tear on the tracks. Finally, I struggle to imagine a scenario where CP would prefer to reroute its trains over the Havelock Sub rather than simply adding more sidings onto its Belleville Sub…
Edit to add: Not to mention that any reference to „freight traffic“ would put local NIMBYs in places like Tweed or Sharbot Lake on Steroids…
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kEiThZ
Superstar
I'm not very confident about those NIMBYs being more favourable to passenger trains blasting through at 177 kph.
crs1026
Superstar
^I can’t imagine a scenario that would make it worth CP’s while to use the Havelock route for freight. Maintenance and operating costs would be cheaper on the Belleville line, which they own…and has lots of spare capacity, and is totally under their operating control.
CP is actually pretty receptive with various Canadian initiatives - eg passenger rail use of the Windsor tunnel, the Banff passenger proposal, and HFR. And Ottawa didn’t create any bureaucratic obstacles to the KCS deal. Perhaps there are things CP wants from Ottawa, but none are as destiny-laden as the KCS merger.
And, keep in mind, Congress just passed a huge infrastructure bill that could provide funding for improvements to the Baton Rouge line. The offer to run Amtrak on that route isn’t really putting CP out all that much, and might pay for itself.
- Paul
CP is actually pretty receptive with various Canadian initiatives - eg passenger rail use of the Windsor tunnel, the Banff passenger proposal, and HFR. And Ottawa didn’t create any bureaucratic obstacles to the KCS deal. Perhaps there are things CP wants from Ottawa, but none are as destiny-laden as the KCS merger.
And, keep in mind, Congress just passed a huge infrastructure bill that could provide funding for improvements to the Baton Rouge line. The offer to run Amtrak on that route isn’t really putting CP out all that much, and might pay for itself.
- Paul
Urban Sky
Senior Member
I hope we can at least agree that the public acceptance of enduring frequent passenger trains is not exactly enhanced by adding a few freight trains into the mix...
roger1818
Active Member
Not sure how many NIMBYs there are between Havelock and Glen Tay. I suspect the moose out number the people along that stretch.
crs1026
Superstar
The community at Sharbot Lake has gone on record seeking a bypass around their town. Beyond that, most towns appear to be favouring the line as they assume they will get a station in their town. Both of those extreme asks may be a bit hard to satisfy, but we’ll see.
- Paul
roger1818
Active Member
I’m relatively familiar with Sharbot Lake (population about 1,400), and given the routing the railway used to take, I can understand why the locals would want it it to bypass around it as it would cut across their pubic beach (just ask those in White Rock BC what that’s like) among other things.
Tweed is the largest community (population approx. 6000) would see significant benefits from a station which would help compensate for the problems.
I can’t think of any other communities that would be significantly affected by the rebuilding of the Havelock sub (the ROW passes south of most of Kaladar and it runs close to Hwy 7 for example)
crs1026
Superstar
We discussed the bypass way back in this thread somewhere. It actually makes a lot of sense for VIA as well as the town, but it could add cost and a couple years to the construction time. I do think that objectively VIA will do harm to Sharbot Lake by restoring the old CPR route….especially at hourly headways in each direction. Whether that’s an acceptable impact given the benefit of the project to the Region generally will be the issue..
There are no showstopper impacts I can think of, but I wonder if expectations and reality will collide in a few places.
The biggest impact is actually in Peterboro, where trains have to run through the central area at far higher frequency and speed than currently - a fair bit of mitigation may be needed to separate the railway line and meet safety considerations. And west of Peterborough, there are several hamlets where one can predict conflicting pressures between residents/developers who expect GOish service and those who are accustomed to infrequent train intrusions and object to all the new horns/bells/crossing delays.
Perth and Smiths Falls will expect good service but VIA will likely need to limit the number of trains that actually stop in both places.
The main road crossing in Tweed gives me pause, Again, there may need to be safety measures and a fairly low speed limit. Quite doable, but the town will notice the changes.
The municipalities along the line are all eager for train service and I don’t see them backing away from that. But certainly there will be the usual media articles with grim-faced residents saying they were misled, not consulted, can’t sleep any more, etc etc. Some of that may be true on an individual level. Democracy is messy.
- Paul
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lenaitch
Senior Member
I think a lot of the municipalities were, or still are, in favour under the belief that they will see passenger service. Whether the residents will remain in favour once the details are fleshed out remains to be seen, Getting passenger service and getting to see passenger trains race by close to your house or cottage may be two different things.
nfitz
Superstar
With so few communities along the track, providing 2 or 3 trains a day on milk runs seems reasonable.
Smith Falls itself already gets 3 trains to Ottawa and Toronto each day (at least before Covid). No reason that shouldn't continue - though will it be through Kingston or Peterborough who knows ...
lenaitch
Senior Member
The complexities of weaving milk runs into the planned service (single track w/passing tracks? I've lost track) I'll leave to others. Although I don't follow it that closely, I don't recall small community stops in the proposal.
Having the odd milk run stop may be little succor to having your doors rattled off by the through trains. In some areas there are permanent and seasonal properties that might have a reasonable cause of action for diminished value and enjoyment. It's not like an upgrade of usage; much of this hasn't been a rail line for nearly half a century.
nfitz
Superstar
I don't think we've seen a proposal that goes to that level of detail.
How the trains enter and leave Montreal to Trois-Rivieres remains a mystery, and there's still debates about how the trains will get into Toronto, with Metrolinx turning the Don Valley line VIA was talking about into a storage yard in the next few years - and the cancellation of the flyover at Scarborough station which would have let express trains turn up the Stouffville line without having to be on the local track first.
crs1026
Superstar
VIA has some pretty clever ways of dealing with this in the corridor, such as spreading the local service across multiple express trains so that no one train makes more than one or two stops... this does not add oodles of trip time.
The worst case is that the base hourly express trains make one or two stops and that particular run takes longer. If there are enough sidings constructed, that won't wreck the overall service pattern or its marketability. Even a single "milk run" each day is doable if the sidings are adequate.
Havelock, Tweed, and Perth have made comments in the past that presumed a stop in their town. I would bet Sharbot Lake expects one. Those places west of Peterborough that had service back in the day may wonder if they will get it again. Kaladar may hope for one.
Ingersoll, St Marys, Strathroy, Gananoque are comparables.... a basic shelter for a station and very limited service every day. So long as no one waxes poetic and creates false expectations, a de minimus local service is doable. But add in a Durham Region stop, plus Eglinton or Kennedy....somewhere there is a limit.
- Paul
lenaitch
Senior Member
And if towns east of Ottawa and between Mtl and QC catch on, it could get interesting.