nfitz
Superstar
That's always been the plan for Confederation I believe - that they'd extend the stub tracks at James Street. Was anyone expecting they'd build a GO platform for the through tracks at West Harbour?
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Allandale25
Senior Member
Urban Toronto gets action!
innsertnamehere
Superstar
yes - I think people were hoping the connecting track would be built earlier however to allow for Niagara services to not have to back into West Harbour any longer.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
A 3rd platform to serve the CN mainline was contemplated as a quick fix right before COVID, but thankfully didn’t proceed. It would not have helped to reduce CN conflicts.
Through tracks have always been the plan, yes. Just very very slow to happen.
nfitz
Superstar
Very slow - we were wondering earlier in (this?) thread back in 2015 why they hadn't been built yet! I still don't know why ... even if temporary they'd have been used for a decade.
crs1026
Senior Member
There's no explanation for why ML and CN haven't reached agreement(on paper) to proceed with the junction.
There is a more direct explanation for why the next step isn't proceeding - Ml has yet to pony up the money.
It is, however, not as simple as just dropping in a switch and some panel track.
- There are clearly buried utilities to relocate (that does seem to be happening, slowly)
- The segment immediately east of West Harbour is an interlocking junction that connects the CN freight yard to waterfront industry, as well has serving as the west end of the double track section that runs over to Grimsby (Nelles Road). Adding a path to the two tracks to route GO into West Harbour would probably mean reconfiguring that entire interlocking, with higher speed turnouts, and possibly addressing freight use at least as far as Parkdale Yard. So it's a redesign of the interlocking, and possibly changes to approach signalling to the east, and programming to signalling towards Bayview.
- The whole zone east of West Harbour is currently 30 mph to about Woodward Ave. One would hope that would be raised. How much track work, and how much signalling, would be needed to do that is anyone's guess.
So as a package, it's not a small bit of work. Would we rather CN do this one first, or fix Georgetown and then do this one? CN does not keep that many project staff sitting around in hopes that ML is feeding them projects - and ML already has a reputation for being unable to commit when CN does clear the decks to make their people available.
- Paul
There is a more direct explanation for why the next step isn't proceeding - Ml has yet to pony up the money.
It is, however, not as simple as just dropping in a switch and some panel track.
- There are clearly buried utilities to relocate (that does seem to be happening, slowly)
- The segment immediately east of West Harbour is an interlocking junction that connects the CN freight yard to waterfront industry, as well has serving as the west end of the double track section that runs over to Grimsby (Nelles Road). Adding a path to the two tracks to route GO into West Harbour would probably mean reconfiguring that entire interlocking, with higher speed turnouts, and possibly addressing freight use at least as far as Parkdale Yard. So it's a redesign of the interlocking, and possibly changes to approach signalling to the east, and programming to signalling towards Bayview.
- The whole zone east of West Harbour is currently 30 mph to about Woodward Ave. One would hope that would be raised. How much track work, and how much signalling, would be needed to do that is anyone's guess.
So as a package, it's not a small bit of work. Would we rather CN do this one first, or fix Georgetown and then do this one? CN does not keep that many project staff sitting around in hopes that ML is feeding them projects - and ML already has a reputation for being unable to commit when CN does clear the decks to make their people available.
- Paul
Allandale25
Senior Member
^ How far east will the connecting track(s) travel from East West Harbour? Is that already public or can anyone speculate?
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crs1026
Senior Member
Not far, likely the crossovers would begin right at the east end of the platforms. But the existing crossovers and turnouts which lie between John and Wellington might have to be moved or reconfigured.
- Paul
Willybru21
Active Member
I certainly hope that the connecting track for West Harbour doesn’t span from East Harbour!
Allandale25
Senior Member
Thanks. Fixed.
drum118
Superstar
Agree with @cr for crossover location.
What gets me is the stub track at the Confederation station, as the bridges are in place now when they were first built a few years as well the area west/south of the bridges were clear and prepared for tracks. Considering Lewis yard is further down the line, one would expect at least one track would continue west/south of the station to get to/from the Lewis yard that will require a switch being cut into CN main line with a crossover to get to the yard lead track, unless everything is coming from/to Willowbrook yard.
What gets me is the stub track at the Confederation station, as the bridges are in place now when they were first built a few years as well the area west/south of the bridges were clear and prepared for tracks. Considering Lewis yard is further down the line, one would expect at least one track would continue west/south of the station to get to/from the Lewis yard that will require a switch being cut into CN main line with a crossover to get to the yard lead track, unless everything is coming from/to Willowbrook yard.
crs1026
Senior Member
Seeing as I'm deskbound on a snowy afternoon, here's a notional junction layout for West Harbour.
The bare minimum (purple) would be to join the two platform tracks and then join that directly to the current main line. (shown in green)
A better design,(yellow) to reduce conflict with CN, and anticipating that there will one day be a third track all the way to Confederation, would also put a new track from the platform all the way to about Wellington St, with new higher speed crossovers east of Wellington so that trains on either main line could enter the new track. That gives the potential for two track operation into/out of the depot (if CN would allow that) and it keeps GO clear of the junction with the lead to the industrial areas - which remain quite busy. More costly, yes, but more effective.
- Paul
The bare minimum (purple) would be to join the two platform tracks and then join that directly to the current main line. (shown in green)
A better design,(yellow) to reduce conflict with CN, and anticipating that there will one day be a third track all the way to Confederation, would also put a new track from the platform all the way to about Wellington St, with new higher speed crossovers east of Wellington so that trains on either main line could enter the new track. That gives the potential for two track operation into/out of the depot (if CN would allow that) and it keeps GO clear of the junction with the lead to the industrial areas - which remain quite busy. More costly, yes, but more effective.
- Paul
drum118
Superstar
If I remember, there has to be a 3rd track and 4th track to allow for a centre platform between them with side platform and leaving CN free to bypass the station what I saw on site.
To have a stub track as per your plan, a centre platform has to be built between CN mainline and the plan stub track. This allows GO trains to get to/from the Lewis yard with a crossover to the other CN track. I can't recall if a crossover was installed during the track work at the time. It also allows GO to access to 3 tracks for the station and only using CN tracks or adding a 3rd track to the next GO Station toward NF.
They were grading and doing other work on the other side as well at the station area.
Looking at this photo shot 2020, there is room for a centre platform between CN and GO tracks. With a centre platform for GO tracks. it would have to behind me from this location so the track can be spread apart to do so.
Behind me for the first shot
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smallspy
Senior Member
It's not trackwork, and it's not signalling that's the issue.
The issue is a CTA decree about the accessibility of the tracks from the local neighbourhoods.
I don't know if simply building/improving the fencing through there is sufficient, or if it will require a full-blown grade separation to resolve it.
Dan
cplchanb
Senior Member
It's quite a paradox how politicians are all raving about accessibility and transit yet their own laws prevents that from happening