[Red October]

You can't compare environmental consumption and pollution per capita, you just can't.

China's per capita is low because it's so overstuffed with people, and a large percentage of the population lives below the poverty line. Not to mention the communist government controls a lot of what people do.

I'm not going to defend the US because they really are a consumer society (as are we, to a lesser extent), but with Canada you have to think about it. We have a very low population density because the vast majority of our country is located in the Tundra and Arctic, where not many people live. This enormous country with less people makes it so everything is further apart, and it takes more energy to transport goods and people. It can take over 2 days to drive out of this province for crying out loud! We have a colder climate, and a climate that has a very large variation between winter and summer compared to many other countries, which means we spend a lot on energy to heat and cool our homes, and a lot of energy on transportation.

You really just can't compare a country of 1.3 billion to a country of 34 million, when the 34 million country is much larger.

 

[kkgg7]

Good point, I have been scolded. Add Sao Paolo to the list, and Buenos Aires, and Mexico City as was pointed out. It was a very lazy remark.

Basically, my point was this: Europe has already topped out in terms of density, while I don't think Asia has, which is why I believe it to be more of an experiment, because I don't know when urbanization there will stop.

Anyway, your criteria for greatness are not the same as mine, as I don't think cramming people together equals greatness, nor do I wish to live in such crowded areas. NYC is great today because of things that happened at the turn of the century when it was a much much smaller city, and that goes for London and Paris as well. Today it is still great because there isn't another mini NYC right next to it, not to mention ten more in the surrounding areas like in Guangdong or Beijing.

And if you think Europe is as crowded than Asia, ok sure, quote stats to back you up! My lived experience is completely different, and I would stand by it any day. World's largest traffic jam anyone! Governments that tell people when to drive due to overcrowding?! More people cram into the same space in China, at least right now. Ride a Chinese or Japanese subway then go to Paris. Crowds after crowds after crowds in Asia - this is not what you experience in Europe, or even in NYC for that matter.

I'm sorry but your attitude is puzzling. Quoting your "friend's" wealth in Shanghai is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion and as much of a digression as someone pointing out the callous and inhuman treatment that girl was given just outside of Guangzhou. Please, no one here is saying that China is not important - YOU are projecting that, probably because you want it to be much more important than it really is.

Europe and North America did things with far less than half the population of China. Did you know the entire US population in 1920 when cars and much of modern life was being invented was only 106 million? We do NOT need masses to achieve things.

I can't wait until China does more in the world - not to mention India which is rising as well - so don't get me wrong. I also can't wait for it to be more democratic. But your assumption that people are ignorant of Asia is just false. Look at the population of Toronto and Vancouver and tell me we are Eurocentric! We love Asia and can't get enough of it, and the future of Canada will be a fusion of Europe and Asia (including India and South Asia, of course); all worlds will come here to make a home, and that is fine by me. Let's just not sacrifice the environment or our quality of life in the meantime (here's looking at you, megacities). Traffic in the GTA is bad enough as it is!

Thanks. I appreciate your valuable comments. I admit being a bit too aggressive in some of my posts. I apologize if that has been offensive.
The baby girl accident is rather heartbreaking, and similar events happened frequently in the past couple of years. I have not been defending China for being a better place than Canada, in fact, it got much worse than 20 years ago on many levels. The moral decay of the entire society is appaling, as if nothing matters other than incessantly making more money.
I totally agree with you that Toronto will be a fusion of Europe and Asia. I believe it will be its true identity in the end (not "diversity" in general, as most big cities are diverse, and we have very low percentages of Latinos and Blacks)

 

[kkgg7]

You can't compare environmental consumption and pollution per capita, you just can't.

China's per capita is low because it's so overstuffed with people, and a large percentage of the population lives below the poverty line. Not to mention the communist government controls a lot of what people do.

I'm not going to defend the US because they really are a consumer society (as are we, to a lesser extent), but with Canada you have to think about it. We have a very low population density because the vast majority of our country is located in the Tundra and Arctic, where not many people live. This enormous country with less people makes it so everything is further apart, and it takes more energy to transport goods and people. It can take over 2 days to drive out of this province for crying out loud! We have a colder climate, and a climate that has a very large variation between winter and summer compared to many other countries, which means we spend a lot on energy to heat and cool our homes, and a lot of energy on transportation.

You really just can't compare a country of 1.3 billion to a country of 34 million, when the 34 million country is much larger.

You have some truth to it. Canada is a unique country. very low density is largely to blame.
However, I did find out that in the winter, many home owners/apartment buildings set their temperature very high, so that when it is -20 outside, it is warm enough to wear T-shirts and shorts indoors, which almost never happens in either west Europe or East Asia.
Another reason is most people still prefer living in single family houses, which takes a lot more space and requires a lot of energy, and which has cause such low density. People don't live downtown/midtown condos as soon as they have a family, unlike Europe and Asia as well. When you live in single family houses, the density decreases and drive time increases. It is a choice.

So our choice of lifestyle is partly to blame as well for the high consumption of energy.

 

[Tewder]

You are being unfair about a growing developing country here.
Sure, the West can apparently draw back cheap Chinese imports, and and then produce paper cups, stuffed animals and cotton shirts using their $30 per hour union workers. Sure thing. It saves a lot of domestic jobs.

... and inhumane totalitarian sweatshops that operate in the absence of any environmental regulations are fair? Bring the jobs back to North America and I'll gladly pay more for a paper cup, thank you very much... heck, a lot of North Americans will be able to afford that paper cup because they'll be working again!

However, why the West has chosen not to do it? because they like free trade? NO, because they are better off this way. It is a win-win situation. Do you have any idea what inflation would have been if the US and Canada hadn't imported tons of cheap products from China in the past 10 years? What your life quality will be if the Sears shirts are $120 instead of $30? If a dozen plastic plates are $20 instead of $1.99?

The few who benefit from this are the corrupt politicians and greedy deregulated corporations that fund them. Time for change, my friend. Thank god we have a democracy!!

1) Developed countries have experienced such phrase as well. remember London was the Capital of Fog once upon a time? Just because you are over that stage doesn't give you the right to be condescending.

In fact China is worse because it knows better and yet still does worse.

That I totally agree.
I don't want to talk too much about China vs the West, or the economy, or the politice, since it is a post about construction. However, give other posters the right to post additional relevant and true information although it might hurt some people's feelings and confidence.

Yet the economy and politics have an enormous impact on construction and this topic. We are seeing megatalls rising on fairly unstable economic/political foundations in pop-up frontier towns throughout the world... and then we are seeing far more stable growth in good ol' Toronto, even if the buildings are less steroidal.

... so, to tie it all back in together, even if the construction booms are bigger elsewhere, and the floor-counts higher, the boom in Toronto is more stable and sound, and yet still enormous on the world stage, relatively speaking, for a city of its size within a country of its size. No small thing!

 

[kelly22]

Really great jump to up!

 

[Jonny5]

You should spare some time reading "Economists".
When Europe turns into trouble, they expect Beijing to help, not Ottawa; economists are always talking about RMB replacing USD as a world reserve currency some day, never mentions CAD. Beijing criticizes the US fiscal irresponsibility only a few weeks ago, which was on every major newspaper's front page, Canada probably never dare to confront its sugar daddy like this.
Again, reading more about things happening outside "North America" will really help. The world is change faster than you think and want it to.

You are right. I will read more "Economists" so I can be as edumacated as you.

Oh, and the world can't change fast enough as far as I am concerned, but I pay no attention to anyone who claims they know how it will turn out*.

 

[agoraflaneur]

If we really need to trace "how the growth would be without ..." case, let's think about how the West has invaded such a large part of the rest of the world, East Asia South Asian, South East Asia, Latin America, Africa, how they plundered money and resources, pillaged towns, villages and palaces, salughtered lives, and robbed poor countries of their gold, silver and diamond. That's only 150 years ago. Now that the Robbers are civlilized, put away their knives and guns, put on a suite and tie, and thought everyone has forgotten their disgracful robbers history. I guess they can feel comfortable criticizing developing countries of "not being humane"? Don't forget, the British Museum, the Louvre, and Metropolitan are still displaying treasures they robbed 150 years ago.

Sorry I am a bit off topic here. But the western sacrimonious and self-righteous criticism of what others have done wrong is really annoying.

Oh please, this kind of ignorant justification for the abuse of humanity is actually disgusting and intellectually dishonest.

The West can be self righteous because we fought our horrible political elites, died, were beaten by corporate police, and protested for decades to achieve our freedoms and foster a culture of equality and justice.

We can't be self righteous for our own horrible history. And we aren't. Go to any university and you will find classes on European hegemony, racism, class inequality, and ill treatment wherever you look. Just the other day a university president apologized for residential schools not because the university had a real hand in the policy, but for its failure to speak out. We call it a "national shame" - we don't censor it and - like the Japanese history so often used as a scapegoat by China - erase it from history and ignore reality. Pot calling the kettle. Many Chinese people don't even know about Tiananmen square. And the disgusting censors of the government cover it up - just as they cover up anything they disagree with. The thousands of protests that occur yearly in China are hardly mentioned.

The West does similar things, but there are many of us who fight against that. And your claims that Canadians blindly support America are simplistic and totally uninformed. We risked our political relationship to opposed the Vietnam war and the Iraq war. Huge pressure was applied but we said NO. After the vietnam war, China attacked Vietnam in 1979 - a devastated country. So don't give me any of this "the West is the only imperialist" nonsense. China also created North Korea by joining the war - how do you like THAT country. War with India. Tibet. Suppression of Western separatists. Laos, Thailand, Taiwan ........ Your head is the sand! or you are simply a CPC shill!

So there is a concurrent history of Chinese imperialism in the 20th century that you are ignorant of. The countries around China are not.

I have no rebuttal to the museum argument. Many of us would like those artifacts returned, some of which are currently being transfered. But even Greece doesn't get what is theirs and there is much work to do.

Sorry to veer off topic, but I am so tired of the self-serving sanctimony of the adolescent "they did it so now I can too" and "but I don't wanna clean it up, they didn't." it's not only hurting the world, but China itself.

 

[Tewder]

... and his posture that China is some fragile, innocent developing nation being used and abused by an evil West is also ridiculous!

 

[kkgg7]

... and his posture that China is some fragile, innocent developing nation being used and abused by an evil West is also ridiculous!

No. I am not defending China. It has caused enough pain even on its own people. Why I feel funny is westerners tend to think they are so much better and in a position to judge and preach others, without even taking a clear look at its own history. Some posters seem to argue the history doesn't matter, what matters is the present... it is like saying a murderer can get a clean slate just by apologizing to the family of its victims and a new life starts. If the west really regrets about the evil things it has done, how has it compensated those countries they have invaded and robbed from? You robbed $10 billion and tons of gold and killed thousands of lives, and all of sudden lets all pretend it never happened just because it is all past, and let's all have a new start? that's pretty convenient. (by the way, how China has invaded its neighbors has nothing to do with what's the right thing for the west to do with China. It is like you still have to be punished for killing a killer, China having done bad things doesn't make the west look any better)

Yes, China is polluting a lot now, worryingly a lot. Many think western countries polluted a lot too, but it doesn't matter any more. We have higher requirements and let's abide by it. You know what's the logic flaw here? Who can pollute and by how much seem to always be decided by western countries. So in 1800, 1900, 1950. it doesn't matter because western countries didn't set a rule against it. let's suppose in 1850, China's Qing Dynasty realized the US and UK are polluting too much (not that they would), would the US and UK give a ratsass about what the Chinese Emperor says? No, he doesn't get say because he doesn't have the power. now in 2010, the west is fully developed and doesn't need any highly polluting industry that much, yet the pollution from developing countries are causing harm to their life quality, it suddenly becomes a concern, and they decide to set a rule against it. Yes, it is always the west who sets the rule. When they cause the damage, they don't need any; and when it is others, they accuse them as if the west did such a better job. Humm. anyway, the west always wins.

Admitted China is not helping the world by causing high pollution. But if the western invasion and imperialism is a fact, why isn't the 1.3bn Chinese population just a fact? Have you thought about the possibility that so many people's life depends on that polluting steel or coal making job? China doesn't have the luxury, like the West, to focus so much about how clean the air is or how protected its forest is, it is priority is give those folks a chance to make a living, to earn that $2 an hour just to put food on the table.

Sure, as kind as most westerners are, deep inside, many still prefer the 1.3bn remain in their abject poverty and consume very little energy so that their wonderful middle class life will not be threatened, they can still buy a gallon of gas for $1, and they can still breath fresh and clean air. Who cares about whether that 40 year old Chinese coal mine work has a job or not?

I shall comment on this topic no more. I don't think you guys will understand or even try to understand the hardship many developing countries are going through, or the fact that so many lives and families are still so fragile that something like how much green house gas was released into the air is really not something they can even afford to think about.

 

[agoraflaneur]

without even taking a clear look at its own history. Some posters seem to argue the history doesn't matter, what matters is the present... it is like saying a murderer can get a clean slate just by apologizing to the family of its victims and a new life starts.

Please READ what I wrote. Only Western elites benefited from imperialism. You think English coal miners or Irish factory workers got any of the gold you are talking about? The working people and oppressed in the West fought for the equality we have now. We fought that same imperialism you are talking about, and now we teach about it in the classroom. Yet China censors its own history, just like Japan. Yeah, just like the Japan everyone hates there.

No one who is genuine in the West denies its history of violence. Those who do are just as culpable - but you can't blame everyone for the elite's actions. We were also victims of that imperial capitalist system that subjugates the many for the benefit of the few - and we fought it and many died to fight against it. Those who fought for it - well I have no sympathy for them.

You robbed $10 billion and tons of gold and killed thousands of lives, and all of sudden lets all pretend it never happened just because it is all past, and let's all have a new start? that's pretty convenient.

No it isn't convenient. It is horrible. The rich never compensated anyone, whether the workers in the west or anyone else in the world. What else is new? Is everyone guilty? Absolutely not. I didn't see any of that wealth and neither did my hard working ancestors. So when I say "China" in a negative context, just as the west in a negative context, I mean its elite and rich, too.

BUT, even still, the West gives BILLIONS of dollares PER YEAR in foreign aid. Why do you ignore this completely? Ideology? Ignorance?

(by the way, how China has invaded its neighbors has nothing to do with what's the right thing for the west to do with China. It is like you still have to be punished for killing a killer, China having done bad things doesn't make the west look any better)

This is the argument that you said I COULDN'T make to justify western imperialism, and now you say that it justifies Chinese actions? China stole from its neighbours throughout history - and was stolen from. It attacked countries just as did western countries in the 20th centuries, but all you focus on is the west. Shame.

I didn't even mention greenhouse gasses. I was talking about the massive clouds of toxic pollution that harm Chinese people, not me. You know, the Chinese people you claim to care about.

But environmental standards are different today because we know better. Full stop. We didn't have any idea of global warming 100 years ago; it is total nonsense to parrot this argument. You might have noticed that a lot of people here don't care about them either, so why lump everyone together? I am not a big fan of the oil sands in Alberta - have you noticed we protest against that and NOT China? No that doesn't fit your narrow mindset of anti-western ideology.

Sure, as kind as most westerners are, deep inside, many still prefer the 1.3bn remain in their abject poverty and consume very little energy so that their wonderful middle class life will not be threatened, they can still buy a gallon of gas for $1, and they can still breath fresh and clean air. Who cares about whether that 40 year old Chinese coal mine work has a job or not?

While you might be right that it was comfortable for the west to stay as it was and not deal with other countries, I don't own a car and bike or take transit. I want others to do the same. Middle class life isn't wasting gas for me. Everyone can breath fresh air if we have good standards. We actually impose huge taxes on gas -especially in Europe - to promote conservation and have done so for decades. Our leftist and green parties are at the forefront of pricing carbon for US - we DIDN'T MAKE China sign the Kyoto accord, remember?

You must really believe the things you write, don't you - that you can't develop without making a mess of everything. That isn't true. Rich owners want too much profit and won't invest in making clean production. That is it. Greed pure and simple. Same as the West.

Your coal worker doesn't have to shovel coal in abject conditions. He could do something else if your friend in Shanghai shared the wealth and invested in education and even clean coal technology so he could work in better conditions, instead of wasting the 1M you seem so proud of on mere condos. Sweet use of the new wealth they have.

This idea that development necessitates abject conditions both environmental and in labour practices is just justification for the rich to buy new BMWs and 2 condos in Shanghai. Get over it and stop blaming everyone else, claiming, again that they did it so now I can too.

And by the way, I believe that I actually care more about that poor worker than you do - you obviously prefer rich Chinese people who clearly use their own people as semi slaves. That is on you, not me - so don't give me this argument that I don't understand the suffering of development. I know it all too well from the history of all people.

 

[agoraflaneur]

Oh, I forgot to mention perhaps the most important counterpoint to your assertion that the west stole so much - have you been to Shenzhen?!?

You want to talk about stealing? I am so sick of Chinese theft of western property rights. How many BILLIONS are stolen every year by the Chinese counterfeiters? Gucci, Prada, Apple, IKEA - you name it Chinese steal it.

So I demand that China transfer billions per year to the rightful owners of that intellectual property. Your museums are the factories of Guangdong. I want them closed and I want the money back.

How terrible is the long history of Chinese theft of western treasures of the mind (and now of course Japanese and Korean and Taiwanese, too!).!

 

[La_Tour_TO]

I personally thank China for making Canada and the globe warmer.

 

[Tewder]

No. I am not defending China.

Yes, in fact you are... and quite transparently which makes everybody here question the integrity of what you post. Sorry.

Why I feel funny is westerners tend to think they are so much better and in a position to judge and preach others, without even taking a clear look at its own history.

Nonsense. In the West you will find gratuitous amounts of hand-wringing and navel-gazing over the shame of its past attrocites. It's how we heal. It's how we move on. It's how we become better, hopefully... and it's what elevates us over places like, well like China!

You robbed $10 billion and tons of gold and killed thousands of lives, and all of sudden lets all pretend it never happened just because it is all past, and let's all have a new start? that's pretty convenient.

All countries and cultures, within the West or outside of it, have skeletons in their closet. Pre-European contact native Americans kept slaves, slaughtered each other brutally and practised torture! No society can claim to be umblemished by these things and you are on an extremely slippery slope to expect that all of the ills of history should be compensated by the perpetrators... so the Spanish should compensate Mexicans yet receive compensation from the Romans and the modern descendants of the Moors, who in turn should be compensated by... you get my point. Fruitless.

The only way for a culture or society to 'compensate' humanity for the evils of its past is to recognize them and strive to evolve and be better. Though we are absolutely not perfect this is what the West has done better than other parts of the world, and in this sense is how we attempt to atone.

Yes, China is polluting a lot now, worryingly a lot. Many think western countries polluted a lot too, but it doesn't matter any more. We have higher requirements and let's abide by it. You know what's the logic flaw here? Who can pollute and by how much seem to always be decided by western countries. So in 1800, 1900, 1950. it doesn't matter because western countries didn't set a rule against it. let's suppose in 1850, China's Qing Dynasty realized the US and UK are polluting too much (not that they would), would the US and UK give a ratsass about what the Chinese Emperor says?

On the contrary, I think the world would welcome a China that was willing and wanting to progress in a responsible way... and China would have more credibility and be more accepted at the international table for doing so. As it is we cannot take China seriously... and we cannot simply overlook the attrocities there because of attrocities that happened here in the past. It doesn't work that way. Sorry if you find this hypocritical but the world moves forward, not backwards.

Have you thought about the possibility that so many people's life depends on that polluting steel or coal making job? China doesn't have the luxury, like the West, to focus so much about how clean the air is or how protected its forest is, it is priority is give those folks a chance to make a living, to earn that $2 an hour just to put food on the table.

Have you thought about the fact that without responsible regulations unbridled industry and pollution will not sustain anybody in the long run? It is truly an inferior society that kills off resources that should be renewable for short-term gain, as the West has and still does, I might add. Again, not that we are better but that in this sense people in the West who are advocating for reform will view China as an enemy, not an ally.

I shall comment on this topic no more. I don't think you guys will understand or even try to understand the hardship many developing countries are going through, or the fact that so many lives and families are still so fragile that something like how much green house gas was released into the air is really not something they can even afford to think about.

The masses toil just to get by and this is something in common all around the world... BUT in more enlightened places we at least expect our leaders, businesses, organizations and governing bodies to know better and to do better to facilitate for the overall long term good, regardless of who will bear the brunt of the suffering. Sad, but it's the only way. A compassionate society will pitch in and help those who fate cannot.

 

[Mongo]

Okay, for this comparison I simply added up the roof heights in metres of all buildings under construction in the USA and Canada, that attained at least 100m. This gives an index of tall building construction activity, that accounts for differing roof heights. My source was SSP.

8508.6m (52.23%) -- 60 buildings -- Toronto + Mississauga, Ontario
3465.8m (21.28%) -- 16 buildings -- New York City, New York
1054.4m (6.47%) -- 8 buildings -- Chicago, Illinois
889.8m (5.46%) -- 7 buildings -- Vancouver + Burnaby + Surrey, British Colombia
259.1m (1.59%) -- 1 building -- Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
248.0m (1.52%) -- 2 buildings -- Montreal, Quebec
245.4m (1.51%) -- 2 buildings -- San Diego, California
236.0m (1.45%) -- 1 building -- Calgary, Alberta
216.4m (1.33%) -- 1 building -- Atlantic City, New Jersey
170.7m (1.05%) -- 1 building -- Dallas, Texas
135.0m (0.83%) -- 1 building -- Houston, Texas
128.3m (0.79%) -- 1 building -- South Padre Island, Texas
126.5m (0.78%) -- 1 building -- Phoenix, Arizona
118.9m (0.73%) -- 1 building -- Arlington, Virginia
113.0m (0.69%) -- 1 building -- Edmonton, Alberta
112.6m (0.69%) -- 1 building -- Detroit, Michigan
109.1m (0.67%) -- 1 building -- Raleigh, North Carolina

 

[Softee]

^ Wow! Toronto is King! (of Canada and the U.S.)