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You are putting the cart before the horse, or more frankly, overenthusiastically trying to sell the idea of a resort casino. You can endlessly argue aesthetics with adma, but no one knows what it's going to look like, who's running it or if it's even going to be built.

The fact is, odds are a 6 billion dollar project will be aesthetically pleasing. It is very likely actually. It's not like I'm saying it could be great but we don't know. I'm saying that a potential multi-billion dollar project that many companies are interested in would probably look great.

But forget about looks for a second. I say this with certainty: no matter how it looks (of course I want it to look good, and it likely will) it will provide jobs and benefit our economy. The taxes alone would help our city greatly, and thats not even including the money tourists spend, and the general economic impact on the city.

So why am I so excited about a potential 6 billion dollar project in Toronto? That question should pretty much answer itself with the words "5 billion dollars". Hahaha. But seriously, I think that it would be a great addition to our city in numbers alone, and I don't understand why we would want to pass on this opportunity.
 
The fact is, odds are a 6 billion dollar project will be aesthetically pleasing. It is very likely actually. It's not like I'm saying it could be great but we don't know. I'm saying that a potential multi-billion dollar project that many companies are interested in would probably look great.

Got any solid evidence to back up this assumption? Because as far as I can see, there is no direct correlation between the aesthetics of any given architectural project and the amount of money one throws at it. There are however various magnitudes of kitsch possible. You can have garden variety kitsch and you can have stupendous, gob-smacking kitsch. And to further muddy the waters, for your average citizen kitsch and noteworthy architecture may in fact mean one and the same thing. If you don't care about kitsch but do desire to be gob-smacked, then throwing billions into a casino on the waterfront may be just up your alley.

It's not up mine. Most contemporary casino projects are so over the top bad - so brashly brassy and glitzy, it's hard to be positive about the prospect of such a blight arriving on the city's waterfront. To say nothing about the claims that the city will come out ahead with this thing.

I accept that a casino is coming to Toronto's waterfront. It would seem to be an inevitable thing. But I can't say I expect great things of it. The hype machine is cranking up, promising epic wonders that will prove to be impossible to fulfil. The hangover, too, will be epic.

I'm all for some great new buildings in Ontario's capital city. But I don't have the same confidence as yourself that they will take the form of a casino complex - regardless of how massive or opulent its appearance.
 
Got any solid evidence to back up this assumption? Because as far as I can see, there is no direct correlation between the aesthetics of any given architectural project and the amount of money one throws at it. There are however various magnitudes of kitsch possible. You can have garden variety kitsch and you can have stupendous, gob-smacking kitsch. And to further muddy the waters, for your average citizen kitsch and noteworthy architecture may in fact mean one and the same thing. If you don't care about kitsch but do desire to be gob-smacked, then throwing billions into a casino on the waterfront may be just up your alley.

It's not up mine. Most contemporary casino projects are so over the top bad - so brashly brassy and glitzy, it's hard to be positive about the prospect of such a blight arriving on the city's waterfront. To say nothing about the claims that the city will come out ahead with this thing.

I accept that a casino is coming to Toronto's waterfront. It would seem to be an inevitable thing. But I can't say I expect great things of it. The hype machine is cranking up, promising epic wonders that will prove to be impossible to fulfil. The hangover, too, will be epic.

I'm all for some great new buildings in Ontario's capital city. But I don't have the same confidence as yourself that they will take the form of a casino complex - regardless of how massive or opulent its appearance.

You are entitled to your opinion, and if you want to think that so be it. But I understand that a casino can be great, and with 6 billion dollars it is very possible that it will. I am not going to post more photos of casinos that are nice because obviously adma doesn't want to see any more...

But I do know that it will have great economic benefit to our city. I believe the design will be great too, with the amount of interest. However, we should not comment on the design until we see some renders. There are countless example of casinos that are designed beautifully. There are those that are not, but we have to hope that we get one that is. Most of the ones in cities are nice, compared to a kitschy vegas casino.
 
You are entitled to your opinion, and if you want to think that so be it. But I understand that a casino can be great...

Just as I understand that a casino can amount to a failed opportunity, a pale and disappointing shadow of what was promised. Nor do I believe that you really "do know that it will have great economic benefit to our city." Clearly that's an article of faith in your case, rather than some irrefutable fact.
 
Just as I understand that a casino can amount to a failed opportunity, a pale and disappointing shadow of what was promised. Nor do I believe that you really "do know that it will have great economic benefit to our city." Clearly that's an article of faith in your case, rather than some irrefutable fact.

We have a fantastic opportunity to put something great and amazing in Toronto. We should NOT throw away this potentially amazing thing because there are examples of disappointing casinos elsewhere in the world. You can not think like that.

How do I know there will be great economic benefit? If you cannot see that a 2000 room hotel, casino, theatre, nightclub, etc. will bring economic benefits then you should rethink.

The way you think, its like saying there are ugly supertalls in teh world so we should not build a supertall because we do not know if it will be ugly.

It could turn out to look like this, so lets never, ever build a supertall.

china_hotel_328+meters-02.jpg


Even though there are so many examples of nice ones. It could be bad.
 
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I think you're over-reacting. Did I say that we shouldn't build things because they might suck? Nope.

It's not a question of economic development - you seem to think that a casino is the only way to maximize dollar potential for the city. I think that's questionable at best. What exactly is wrong with calling into question this unflagging optimism that all will be better, just as soon as Toronto plunks a casino onto its shores?

The way I'm seeing it, I'm attempting to provide a bit of balance to your boosterism. I think your expectations are bordering on surreal utopianism. I just can't share your enthusiasm for a casino. We're both going to have wait until the designs and the numbers will come in. Then there will be some real meat to chew on.

By the way, I rather like that crazy tall building with the golden ball atop it. What exactly is wrong with it? See how easily these discussions can bog down in your aesthetics vs. mine-type contrasts?
 
I think you're over-reacting. Did I say that we shouldn't build things because they might suck? Nope.

It's not a question of economic development - you seem to think that a casino is the only way to maximize dollar potential for the city. I think that's questionable at best. What exactly is wrong with calling into question this unflagging optimism that all will be better, just as soon as Toronto plunks a casino onto its shores?

The way I'm seeing it, I'm attempting to provide a bit of balance to your boosterism. I think your expectations are bordering on surreal utopianism. I just can't share your enthusiasm for a casino. We're both going to have wait until the designs and the numbers will come in. Then there will be some real meat to chew on.

By the way, I rather like that crazy tall building with the golden ball atop it. What exactly is wrong with it? See how easily these discussions can bog down in your aesthetics vs. mine-type contrasts?

Ok, Ok. I do know that a casino will be good economically for our city. My example with the supertall was exaggerated to show my point. I am not saying a casino is the only thing that can be done to help our city. There are countless attractions that could be built, but putting a casino does not mean we can't have those too, it just increases what we have to offer.
 
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Not everyone agrees that casinos are good.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/23/opinion/new-yorks-bad-casino-bet.html

Are casinos a guarantee for easy money? (Not always) Yet, everyone seems to be doing it. So how is it a tourism draw, if all major cities have/get one?
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/story/2012-02-27/casinos-saddled-with-heavy-debt/53307706/1

Here we go again... Whether you morally agree with casinos or not, we are getting on in the GTA no matter what. It is inevitable. Now we are faced with the option on either to put this in some suburb and make it small, boring gaming facility, or put it downtown and have it as a large entertainment complex that includes 2000 hotel rooms, restaurant, shows, etc, etc.
 
That Times article is exactly the sort of thing that makes me less optimistic about casinos than those who are pushing for them.

I'm all for exciting, bold developments along the waterfront. There's been too little of that in the last 40 years and many of the buildings that have gone up, though tall and impressive for how dramatically they've collectively altered the Toronto skyline, are nonetheless mediocre, unimaginative glass boxes. Not much in the way of signature buildings - it's almost as if Toronto were largely averse to these things.

I'd much rather see an ambitious entertainment complex than an entertainment complex that's built around or glommed onto a casino.
 
That Times article is exactly the sort of thing that makes me less optimistic about casinos than those who are pushing for them.

I'm all for exciting, bold developments along the waterfront. There's been too little of that in the last 40 years and many of the buildings that have gone up, though tall and impressive for how dramatically they've collectively altered the Toronto skyline, are nonetheless mediocre, unimaginative glass boxes. Not much in the way of signature buildings - it's almost as if Toronto were largely averse to these things.

I'd much rather see an ambitious entertainment complex than an entertainment complex that's built around or glommed onto a casino.

Only 5% would be a casino and the rest would be an entertainment complex! It would be used by people who do not gamble just as much as, if not more than, those who do.

Look at the Crown Casino in Melbourne! It is actually a great place for fa,allies to stay. Just because one of the features is a casino, it does not mean that the complex as a whole is about gambling.
 
It's also becoming pretty clear that the powers looking to build a casino want a waterfront location only. I think you will see organized opposition to one located in the Portlands or one down by OP and the Ex grounds. The Portlands will see many changes over the next twenty years but no one should expect the cement/aggregates industry down there to pack up and split quietly any time soon. Nor will Pinewoods be shutting down for the sake of a big casino project - if Toronto keeps up with the level of film and television business it's been seeing in recent years, you can reasonably expect Pinewoods will seek to go ahead with their expansion plans. I'm also sure that there are also developers eying the portlands for residential towers. It's the last huge chunk of centrally-located acreage of the city that's left. You can expect a lot of jostling between existing industry, condo developers, park lovers and naturalists. As for OP, that's probably even more controversial.... it's that much closer to existing residential neighbourhoods.
 
Only 5% would be a casino and the rest would be an entertainment complex! It would be used by people who do not gamble just as much as, if not more than, those who do.

Look at the Crown Casino in Melbourne! It is actually a great place for fa,allies to stay. Just because one of the features is a casino, it does not mean that the complex as a whole is about gambling.

Yet why does those city pols jonesing for a mega-casino keep talking about massive and continuous revenues? Seems to me there's an awful lot of smoke and mirrors stuff going on.
 
It's also becoming pretty clear that the powers looking to build a casino want a waterfront location only. I think you will see organized opposition to one located in the Portlands or one down by OP and the Ex grounds. The Portlands will see many changes over the next twenty years but no one should expect the cement/aggregates industry down there to pack up and split quietly any time soon. Nor will Pinewoods be shutting down for the sake of a big casino project - if Toronto keeps up with the level of film and television business it's been seeing in recent years, you can reasonably expect Pinewoods will seek to go ahead with their expansion plans. I'm also sure that there are also developers eying the portlands for residential towers. It's the last huge chunk of centrally-located acreage of the city that's left. You can expect a lot of jostling between existing industry, condo developers, park lovers and naturalists. As for OP, that's probably even more controversial.... it's that much closer to existing residential neighbourhoods.

I see nothing wrong with this being done on the Ex grounds. There is already a temporary casino there during the CNE. Why not expand and make the CNE an even better tourist destination? It's already an entertainment zone.

There are many places along the waterfront, and this could be done in so many different areas.

Yet why does those city pols jonesing for a mega-casino keep talking about massive and continuous revenues? Seems to me there's an awful lot of smoke and mirrors stuff going on.

So an entertainment complex with a casino that has a lot more is ok, but if the casino revenues are big its not ok? Thats really stupid. So what if the casino is the largest source of profit at the entertainment complex? People could come to watch a show, eat at a nice restaurant, goto the spa, ride a ride, stay in the hotel, shop, and not even use the casino once. Just because the major point of profit is the casino doesn't mean that its a bad place. Only 5% is a casino. So what if that 5% supports the other 95% entertainment complex?
 
@coolcanadian agree with you that if Toronto is going to build a casino, that Melbourne is a good example to follow from. In fact I mentioned so earlier in this thread. I wanted to buy this book to learn more about the urban design that went into Melbourne's casino and the impact on the city... but $45+ is a bit steep for the purpose of an internet debate. However I do truly hope that the Toronto city council and Ontario government are looking at this as a source of learning that can be applied to a casino here.

I remember when the casino was first proposed in Melbourne and it received a similar negative reaction. The state premier at the time, Jeff Kennett was a bit of a stubborn guy (even more stubborn than your typical Aussie). He was on a real kick to build Melbourne into an international destination (sounding familiar to the "world class city" comments? :)). Melbourne still had a lot of it's beautiful architecture built during the gold rush, a fantastic cafe/restaurant scene hidden down lane ways and a European flair mixed with the down to earth Aussie nature... but it was missing something big to draw the Tourists in the hope that they would stay and discover the every day delights of the city. The Olympics had come and gone in 1956 and raised Melbourne's name a little bit.. plus the Australian Open tennis was keeping the city's name out there but from a tourist's standpoint Australia is the Sydney Harbour Bridge and Opera House, a big red rock and the great barrier reef.

So what was Jeff to do? Well to start, he helped take the Formula 1 race away from Adelaide and moved it to Melbourne.. another world class sporting event can't hurt. Then he built a new Museum (plus we got our first IMAX theatre). Then he built a new Exhibition center nicknamed "Jeff's Shed". The problem is Jeff's Shed looked awfully modern and out of place with it's surroundings and the state was having serious budget problems.. so simple solution let's build Jeff's Casino right beside the Shed.. two birds with one stone. Against some of the future returns supposed to come out of the casino he funded an expansion to the National Gallery and a beautiful upgrade to the State Library. According to wiki he also used some of it to fund the new aquatic center as well as the new town center "Federation Square" (although I don't think those were built until the early 2000s). The guy also started building tunnels underneath of Melbourne to alleviate the traffic coming in from the major freeways into the city. He also kicked off the revitalization of the Dockland's area with a new massive stadium and transport links. Locals may not say their transit system is world class, but believe me it's generations ahead of Toronto partially due to the investments that came in during this time. All of this happened in an 8 year period.

How did he fund it all? By basically being a dick and killing the public education budget, laying off lots of teachers. Also privatizing anything he could get his hands on. Once the casino was built and handing money back to the government, it did help to offset a lot of the costs of this massive rebuilding of the city.

The fear mongering of a new casino by the media was high (even though Aussie's were already used to gambling on "pokies" [slot machines] at the local pub). Then as it was being built, lots of accusations of corruption in the process. Then once it was built, the horror stories of Grandma losing her pension at the slot machines and children being left unattended in a car as their parents went inside to get their jollies on. Sad stuff, but children get left unattended when parents go the supermarket as well.. still makes the newspaper, just with the anger focused on the parents instead of the establishment they were visiting. Then when the G20 protest occurred in Melbourne, the casino was the target site as it symbolized greed and maybe a little bit of the loss of the "Australia for Australians" culture.

That said 18 years later, socially the casino has become more accepted and it still generates a nice chunk of money for the government. Either directly through the taxes it generates or indirectly through it's influence of bringing people to the area it's still stimulating re-development of the city. The Docklands area grows and grows each time I go back. The neighborhood slightly to the east "South Melbourne" is being gentrified and turned into a place where young professionals want to live. There is a whole new neighborhood just to the south called "South Wharf". On the Southbank area (where the casino is located) there is Melbourne's newest tallest tower. The Southbank area has become an incredibly popular area for tourist and locals alike with all of the restaurant and entertainment options.. plus it's right next to the beautiful botanical gardens and just a stroll across the river to the central business district. Some of the casino money was also used to fund the redevelopment of the major regional train station "Southern Cross". It was also partially used to help fund the transition to the MyKi transit card system (similar to the Presto system they are trying to get going here).. granted I don't think it works perfectly yet.. but time will hopefully fix that.

A quick google search is not returning much on historical trends for international visitors to Melbourne.. so I can't say if all this rebuilding of the city actually achieved its goal of making the city a bigger international destination. The only source I found was this www.auscasinos.com/pdf/media/CasinosandtheAusEconomy.pdf but it seems to be written by the casino industry so I'll leave it be.

So did Melbourne do it perfectly? No some mistakes were made along the way... but in my opinion it's turned out pretty well for the city in the end. Definitely one of the better sources of inspirations and learnings from around the world for Toronto to go by.
 

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