[nfitz]

Yup. I think a Lower Queen type of deal would certainly be warranted here.

Build the box for a second set of platforms, that are left under-utilized for 70+ years, will likely ever be used for trains, and if they ever are, are so grossly inadequate that they'll have to spend just as much at they would have had to anyways, to widen the station?

TTC has been tossing around plans for an Eglinton subway station on Don Mills for almost 50 years already. And we still don't know where it's going to go.

Perhaps making sure they leave space for a future platform would be sensible (the same way they have left space for a future LRT underground station at Steeles West station) - but I don't see the need for anything else until the DRL design is advanced. And if is advanced significantly, they can issue a change order to build some connecting tunnels - the same way they are issuing one now at Finch West station to connect to the underground LRT platforms.

Doing anything more at this point would be fiscally irresponsible.

 

[gweed123]

Build the box for a second set of platforms, that are left under-utilized for 70+ years, will likely ever be used for trains, and if they ever are, are so grossly inadequate that they'll have to spend just as much at they would have had to anyways, to widen the station?

TTC has been tossing around plans for an Eglinton subway station on Don Mills for almost 50 years already. And we still don't know where it's going to go.

Perhaps making sure they leave space for a future platform would be sensible (the same way they have left space for a future LRT underground station at Steeles West station) - but I don't see the need for anything else until the DRL design is advanced. And if is advanced significantly, they can issue a change order to build some connecting tunnels - the same way they are issuing one now at Finch West station to connect to the underground LRT platforms.

Doing anything more at this point would be fiscally irresponsible.

I'm not saying literally build a Lower Queen streetcar platform, but build a roughed-in subway platform. And I don't think it'll take 70+ years to get the DRL up to Eglinton. 25, max.

Realistically, there are very few viable options for the DRL to bisect Eglinton other than at Don Mills, in sharp contrast to the multitude of options going through downtown. I see it as a 'pay me now, pay me later' thing. We know the DRL is going to end up there, so accommodate for it now so that you don't have to rip the station apart in 15-25 years to build it in.

It's a very similar rationale for why they built Sheppard-Yonge as a 3 platform station. They could have just as easily put in 1 centre platform and called it a day. Or why the Prince Edward Viaduct was over-designed in order to carry a lower deck. Sometimes spending a little bit more in the short term can save a lot of headache (and money) in the long term.

 

[khris]

Has construction started on this line at any point along it yet?

 

[gweed123]

Has construction started on this line at any point along it yet?

Just the launch shaft around Black Creek.

 

[khris]

Thanks!

 

[nfitz]

I'm not saying literally build a Lower Queen streetcar platform, but build a roughed-in subway platform.

What is Lower Queen over than a roughed-in streetcar platform?

And I don't think it'll take 70+ years to get the DRL up to Eglinton. 25, max.

And I don't think those that built Lower Queen thought it would be 25 years, let alone 70+. What's the net present value of something 25 years in the future? Very little.

I see it as a 'pay me now, pay me later' thing. We know the DRL is going to end up there, so accommodate for it now so that you don't have to rip the station apart in 15-25 years to build it in.

We have no idea when it would get there ... even if a DRL is built, the piece to Eglinton is likely not going to be Phase 1. But more importantly where would it get built? Likely Eglinton and Don Mills. And yet it's a pretty desolate spot. But what elevation? Centre of road? East of road? West of road? Perhaps it would elevated? Perhaps it would be on the surface?

It's a very similar rationale for why they built Sheppard-Yonge as a 3 platform station.

Which hardly seems like a wise decision so far. But a little different. Leaving the space for a future 3rd platform in an existing station is one thing. Personally, I think the work they did to prepare for a future 2nd and 3rd platform on the YUS line at Sheppard-Yonge is far more valuable than that third platform on the Sheppard line.

Or why the Prince Edward Viaduct was over-designed in order to carry a lower deck.

Another example of a colossal failure. It was overdesigned in anticipation of a subway being built there in the short term. Surely if someone had told R.C. Harris when they were designing it, that it would be 55 years until there was a subway there, he too would have agreed that the huge extra expenditure spent during WWI wasn't wise. The present value of something 50 years in the future is near zero. And even then, they only used the Don Rivers span that they included the lower deck in. Other sections of the lower deck remain unused, a century later.

Sometimes spending a little bit more in the short term can save a lot of headache (and money) in the long term.

Agreed. But no one would ever advocate spending money now, to save a bit 50 years from now (if ever).

 

[BurlOak]

Agreed. But no one would ever advocate spending money now, to save a bit 50 years from now (if ever).

There are certain critical times when the politicians need to make a decision.

Do we build the DRL up to Eglinton in the next 15 or 20 years or not?

If the answer is yes, then design and build (at least rough-in) the station now (actually its still probably 4 to 6 years before the station actually gets built).

If the answer is no, then do not built it. But then we commit to no DRL to Eglinton and also risk the very real posibility that the DRL will not be built at all since the Boroughs would not want to support a line that does not go north of Danforth.

 

[Rainforest]

We have no idea when it would get there ... even if a DRL is built, the piece to Eglinton is likely not going to be Phase 1. But more importantly where would it get built? Likely Eglinton and Don Mills. And yet it's a pretty desolate spot. But what elevation? Centre of road? East of road? West of road? Perhaps it would elevated? Perhaps it would be on the surface?

DRL is unlikely to be on surface (blocking all Don Mills crossings) or elevated in that section. It will almost certainly be underground.

The depth, and the position with respect of the centre of the road, will be adjusted to connect to the station.

Note that if the spot is pretty desolate now, but will be developed during the next 20 - 25 years, then building the DRL station at that time will be a lot more expensive then if the station box is built now.

 

[nfitz]

Note that if the spot is pretty desolate now, but will be developed during the next 20 - 25 years, then building the DRL station at that time will be a lot more expensive then if the station box is built now.

If it really takes 20-25 years before we are building a DRL station, it doesn't matter how much it will cost then, the net present value of the future cost is bound to be far less than what would be wasted building a box now.

Did everyone here flunk economics or something?

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

The Finch West Station box on the Spadina extension is to be located north of Finch Avenue West. It will include a knockout panel at the south end of the station box for the future connection to the Finch West LRT. However, it looks like they will be digging up Finch Avenue West when it comes time to put in the underground connection for the LRT, even though the opening of the Spadina extension and the Finch West LRT are only four years apart. The underground LRT station will be over the HRT subway tunnels.

Likely, they will build the Don Mills station deep enough so that the future DRL station will also be over the Eglinton LRT tunnels. They'll need to provide knock-out panels to provide connections.

However, I think to avoid having to dig up the road again in both cases, they should at least build all the station boxes at the same time at both Finch West & Keele and at Don Mills & Eglinton East, leaving the temporary unused stations as rough-in.

 

[UD2]

DRL is unlikely to be on surface (blocking all Don Mills crossings) or elevated in that section. It will almost certainly be underground.

The depth, and the position with respect of the centre of the road, will be adjusted to connect to the station.

Note that if the spot is pretty desolate now, but will be developed during the next 20 - 25 years, then building the DRL station at that time will be a lot more expensive then if the station box is built now.

Civilization west of Don Mills between Eglinton and the DVP includes one large parking lot, a hydro belt, and two 3 storey schools. It should be relatively easy to install elevated rail. i wouldn't count it out.

 

[Rainforest]

If it really takes 20-25 years before we are building a DRL station, it doesn't matter how much it will cost then, the net present value of the future cost is bound to be far less than what would be wasted building a box now.

Did everyone here flunk economics or something?

If the construction inflation index is consistently greater than the general inflation index, then it is always cheaper to build now than to build in future.

Of course, it might be more beneficial to direct the funding available today towards another project that will be operational sooner than in 25 years.

But if the future cost of DRL station increases due to 3 factors simultaneously: construction cost inflation, the need to build under /over the existing line, and the need to deal with the built-up intersection; then I would not be surprised if building the box now comes out as a better option.

 

[nfitz]

If the construction inflation index is consistently greater than the general inflation index, then it is always cheaper to build now than to build in future.

If there were not O&M costs perhaps. But what's the general lifecycle costs of infrastructure? After a decade or so, your probably averaging about 5% a year in maintenance - or at least you should be. And that exceeds the difference between the construction and consumer price indexes.

 

[drum118]

If the construction inflation index is consistently greater than the general inflation index, then it is always cheaper to build now than to build in future.

Of course, it might be more beneficial to direct the funding available today towards another project that will be operational sooner than in 25 years.

But if the future cost of DRL station increases due to 3 factors simultaneously: construction cost inflation, the need to build under /over the existing line, and the need to deal with the built-up intersection; then I would not be surprised if building the box now comes out as a better option.

As pointed out, O & M has to be taken into consideration along with the funds to build it, as well what it does to the system wide at the time.

At the same time, technologically will change over time to the point what you built for today may not work down the road.

Today we look at a single level system when we should be thinking about going double deck, as it will carry far more riders than a single level line. There are very few places you could put in a 3/4 track system to deal with the increase of ridership 50-100 years down the road.

At the same time, you are guessing what a station location may look like to the point you can overbuilt/under built the station box and the protected area for it.

Since there is very little funding for transit these days, the service charges to pay off the cost of building this infrastructure now could be less than the cost to bring it up to current standards than building it new then. This will take badly need money from something that is badly need then.

Take a look at the Queen St line station and you will see it will cost more to rebuild it if the DRL goes along Queen St than what it has cost since when it was first built in the 40's for PCC streetcars. It totally out dated and will never handle the ridership on opening day.

Platforms are a really big issue as they are too small today, as well having next to no good traffic flow to move riders faster to/from the platforms safely.

North York Centre station box was never built when the line was built to Finch, as there was no need for one then. Today it sees over 25,000 riders and will continue to climb with all those new condos being built around it now.

 

[nfitz]

North York Centre station box was never built when the line was built to Finch, as there was no need for one then. Today it sees over 25,000 riders and will continue to climb with all those new condos being built around it now.

Excellent points. And that reminds me.

If the comments that Metrolinx staff made at the meeting are true, that they would have to close the line for 2 years to build a station at Leslie in the future (something I actually find pretty hard to believe actually). Maybe they would be better off the start of the station box now, even if it isn't used for 200 years. Though I expect it would be cheaper to find a way to construct the station in the future without closing the line for significant periods.