[kEiThZ]

I think that John thinks that macroeconomic factors such as supply and demand are beyond his control as mayor and that he shouldn't lie to the people about the reality of living in a big city like Toronto.

Exactly. And the extended version of his answer proved that. He was the only one of the three to point out that choosing to live downtown might involve space tradeoffs (living in a condo) and lifestyle tradeoffs (possibly giving up the car).

No. That's not it. It's more about John Tory's overly self-entitled definition of comfortable.

Evidence? Or is this just more slanderous conjecture?

 

[kEiThZ]

I just looked up the original question - for some reason I was under the impression that it was 'how much it would cost a family of four to live comfortably in downtown Toronto?'. I agree, less than $100,000 shouldn't be too much of a problem in many parts of the city, but in downtown housing costs alone would eat up a huge portion of that.

It was about downtown Toronto. The question was prompted by a question from a listener concerned about the rising cost of living downtown.

 

[Ramako]

It's entirely possible to live comfortably in Toronto for less than $100K. Now you might have to do without luxuries such as a car, high-speed Internet, and eating out 3 times a week ... but it get's down to John Tory's overprivileged view of the world, more so than anything else.

Remember that the 40K between 60k and 100k is taxed at up to 43%. You only get to keep about 25k of that 40k.

How much are you paying for your apartment? I assume you have no car.

There's always places to cut ...

Tory may be over privileged but we live in a prosperous, first world city in the 21st century. I think our standard of what we consider "comfortable" should include things like being able to own a car and not having to fear being underwater if you miss a paycheck. It seems like what passes for 'comfortable' in our society has steadily decreased from what it was only a few decades ago when the middle class was strong, and that backwards in my mind.

 

[kEiThZ]

Tory may be over privileged but we live in a prosperous, first world city in the 21st century. I think our standard of what we consider "comfortable" should include things like being able to own a car and not having to fear being underwater if you miss a paycheck. It seems like what passes for 'comfortable' in our society has steadily decreased from what it was only a few decades ago when the middle class was strong, and that backwards in my mind.

And funnily enough Tory himself did point out trade-offs in his answer. An argument could even be made that if you are making trade-offs, that's not a "comfortable" life. $100k income is barely $60k after taxes.

If you live in the downtown core and want a proper two bedroom that a family of four can live in, you could easily half of that post-tax income eaten up in rent. Another $6k at least on transportation (metropasses, occassional rental, taxis). That's $24k per year, or $500 per month per person for food, toiletries, clothing, entertainment and long term savings. I'd say that's just in the bounds of "comfortable". If that family wanted to own a car, you could easily tack on another $10k pre-tax. And another $10k pre-tax if they wanted to own their residence (assuming they have enough to make a downpayment in the first place).

It's incredibly out-of-touch to think a family could survive on $60 pre-tax in the core without living in near poverty conditions.

 

[nfitz]

I just looked up the original question - for some reason I was under the impression that it was 'how much it would cost a family of four to live comfortably in downtown Toronto?'. I agree, less than $100,000 shouldn't be too much of a problem in many parts of the city, but in downtown housing costs alone would eat up a huge portion of that.

Well hang on - what's downtown. Yonge and Bloor? No ... couldn't live on that. I was thinking old city, where you can still find a 2 bedroom house rental for $1,400 a month.

If both are working, and getting $30,000 each ... 2 kids - let's assume both in school so no child care expenses... but getting activity credits. looking at http://www.taxtips.ca/calculators/taxcalculator.htm their $60,000 before tax is about $51K after tax ... So that's about 4,250 a month. Of which 1/3 goes to rent. Leaving $2,850 a month. We spend about $200 on food a week for 4 - mostly at Loblaws, so not cheap. Let's say $1,000 for food (which is pretty generous - should be enough to eat out occasionally too). Say $400 for TTC. That leaves $450 a month for clothes and entertainment + phone, etc. But that's a lot of money for food. No one is starving.

Sure, $60K is pretty tight. But you can certainly live on less than $100K a year ... which was my point. Don't forget, if income is earned by 2 individuals - then taxes are significantly lower!

$100k income is barely $60k after taxes.

With 2 earners getting $50K each? No, it's almost $78,000 after taxes using the calculator I referenced above. This is a 2-adult 2 kid family - a family of 4. One earner and 3 kids would be tougher. Even with 1 earner, it's almost $74K after taxes. Don't forget all the tax credits for spouses and kids.

It's incredibly out-of-touch to think a family could survive on $60 pre-tax in the core without living in near poverty conditions.

I disagree. I think Tory is the one out of touch. But remember this is a guy who bought a membership in a golf club that didn't let Jews in - let alone non-whites. We KNOW he's out of touch!

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

It sounds like you have a much more frugal definition of "comfortable" than most people - kids sharing a bedroom and only $450 to cover everything else? It's doable but would definitely result in a standard of living below what most people would expect.

Day care really messes up the equation, considering that fees run from $1200-2000+ per child.

 

[kEiThZ]

With 2 earners getting $50K each? No, it's almost $78,000 after taxes using the calculator I referenced above. This is a 2-adult 2 kid family - a family of 4. One earner and 3 kids would be tougher. Even with 1 earner, it's almost $74K after taxes. Don't forget all the tax credits for spouses and kids.

Sorry. Should have added deducations in there. If you don't have health, dental and pension, then really you should be saving for those out of pocket.

I disagree. I think Tory is the one out of touch. But remember this is a guy who bought a membership in a golf club that didn't let Jews in - let alone non-whites. We KNOW he's out of touch!

Nice attempt to deflect. Guess we're back to your constant accusations about racism?

Tory has never made any attempt to hide the fact that he's wealthy or that he has a lifestyle far different from those who would vote for him. His answers, however, do show that he has firm grasp on the realities facing most middle class families. Chow's answers may indicate that she spends so much time talking to residents of subsidized housing that she may not be thinking much about the middle class....assuming she genuinely believe that $60k equals comfortable for a family of four in the downtown core.

I'd like to see clarification from her campaign on her answer. Does she actually believe $60k per earner ($120k family income) as some of her supporters are saying on Twitter or $60k per family? Most of us would actually fault her a lot less for saying $120k than $60k.

 

[picard102]

We KNOW he's out of touch!

Maybe it's not everyone else who's out of touch.

 

[kEiThZ]

It sounds like you have a much more frugal definition of "comfortable" than most people - kids sharing a bedroom and only $450 to cover everything else? It's doable but would definitely result in a standard of living below what most people would expect.

Day care really messes up the equation, considering that fees run from $1200-2000+ per child.

The question specifically excluded daycare. Chow asked how old the kids were. And the moderator stated they were teens.

 

[Ramako]

I'd think if you have two teenagers, you'd need a 3 bedroom unit, otherwise your life would be far from "comfortable".

 

[kEiThZ]

Clearly Tory is out of touch. Just read the comments:

https://www.facebook.com/ctvtoronto...7520000.1413514011./10152834322219579/?type=1

 

[nohostages]

Simply recognizing the costs of living in downtown Toronto is not the same as endorsing those costs as being fair and reasonable in an ideal world.

Moderate view. Thanks( not to be mistaken for sarcasm)

 

[nfitz]

It sounds like you have a much more frugal definition of "comfortable" than most people - kids sharing a bedroom ...

Kids sharing a bedroom is frugal?

Good grief ... it's this sense of entitlement that's the issue. Kids all over the world have shared bedrooms. When people used to have 5 kids, do you think they used to have 6 bedrooms?

Iay care really messes up the equation, considering that fees run from $1200-2000+ per child.

I assumed kids weren't in day care. Though Chow is also campaigning on Quebec-style daycare rates ...

I really fail to see why some are working so hard hear to defend a right-wing conservative like John Tory. Is this really what you want for this city?

Tory may be over privileged but we live in a prosperous, first world city in the 21st century. I think our standard of what we consider "comfortable" should include things like being able to own a car

What on earth does someone living in downtown Toronto need a car for? Why not use Autoshare ... it's far cheaper. I put enough into food to cover a car once a week for groceries.

Heck, I just bought a brand-new car ... and I've only used it 3 times since Labour Day (other than driving it home). Two of those trips I could easily have used transit - but it was late at night, and I could save a bit of time because the roads were empty. And the other was a trip to Guelph with the family to see relatives. Could have easily used AutoShare (which we are member of). Far cheaper than the insurance I paid this month - let alone the cost of the car! It's a luxury. Hmm, I suppose I could have used it to go out to Scarborough Centre the other day ... to tell the truth it never crossed my mind to take it ... I guess it would have saved 10 minutes there and 15 minutes back ...

I'd think if you have two teenagers, you'd need a 3 bedroom unit, otherwise your life would be far from "comfortable".

I've known many people who grew up their entire life sharing a room (some 3 to a room!) - at least if same gender. Seemed comfortable enough.

 

[nohostages]

Evidence? Or is this just more slanderous conjecture?

Sounding a little nfitzy there .

 

[nohostages]

The question specifically excluded daycare. Chow asked how old the kids were. And the moderator stated they were teens.

A responsible parent can't just go "woohoo .my kids are in school all day no more day care costs" they would need to save for post secondary education and their own retirement.