[kEiThZ]

Sounding a little nfitzy there .

Why? Because I asked nfitz to back up this statement:

It's more about John Tory's overly self-entitled definition of comfortable.

 

[kEiThZ]

A responsible parent can't just go "woohoo .my kids are in school all day no more day care costs" they would need to save for post secondary education and their own retirement.

Indeed they would, which is why $100k is reasonable. But day care demands an acute spike in cash flow while the kids are young. Putting aside ~$400 a month into an RESP in a relatively moderate risk portfolio from age 3 onwards, would give any child more than enough for post-secondary (accumulate around $100k by their 18th birthday).

Daycare costs on the other hand:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...al-parent-trap-daycare-costs/article15031582/

There's also the issue of spending flexibility. Not enough to go to university? Kid can work for a year. Not enough to retire? Could put off retirement or work part-time when retired. On the other hand, there's no way to avoid or defer child care. And in the downtown core? I shudder to think what that would cost.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I really fail to see why some are working so hard hear to defend a right-wing conservative like John Tory. Is this really what you want for this city?

If Chow thinks that lower-middle class families can live comfortable lives with 60k, then yes, I want someone with a sense of reality.

What on earth does someone living in downtown Toronto need a car for? Why not use Autoshare ... it's far cheaper. I put enough into food to cover a car once a week for groceries.

Not everyone works downtown. Weren't you just complaining that downtown should have mixed-income neighborhoods too? Where do you expect those mixed-income residents to work?

A responsible parent can't just go "woohoo .my kids are in school all day no more day care costs" they would need to save for post secondary education and their own retirement.

This is another big thing. My parents are planning on just packing up and going back to Poland for retirement because they can't make it in the city with the high cost of living.

This is a massive problem that nobody talks about. What are all those lower-middle income people in the city going to do once they are forced to retire with not much in the way of savings and a pension that can barely pay for rent, let alone food and other expenses? Do we tell them that they cannot live in Toronto?

 

[nohostages]

Why? Because I asked nfitz to back up this statement:

No. The slanderous thing reminded me of the bigot thing.

 

[kEiThZ]

Kids sharing a bedroom is frugal?

Good grief ... it's this sense of entitlement that's the issue. Kids all over the world have shared bedrooms. When people used to have 5 kids, do you think they used to have 6 bedrooms?

...

I've known many people who grew up their entire life sharing a room (some 3 to a room!) - at least if same gender. Seemed comfortable enough.

Despite having spent most of my childhood overseas sharing a room with my younger brother, I should think I understand that having your own room as a child is a Canadian norm. More so for teenagers.

But that's beside the point. Tory specifically said that there families would have to sacrifice space to live in the downtown core. I automatically assumed that the two kids would be sharing a room. If we're talking about a family securing a three-bedroom accomodation, then even $100k income might be pushing it. A comfortable two bedroom condo is already $2k in rent in the core. And that's for most two bedrooms where the second bedroom is more den than livable bedroom for two teenagers.

I really fail to see why some are working so hard hear to defend a right-wing conservative like John Tory.

The rest of us don't share your view about John Tory being a "right-wing conservative". We see a rather moderate centre-right candidate. And no amount hysterics is going to really change that point of view.

What on earth does someone living in downtown Toronto need a car for? Why not use Autoshare ... it's far cheaper.

Tory never said you needed a car downtown. That was part of his discussion about lifestyle choices.

Heck, I just bought a brand-new car ... and I've only used it 3 times since Labour Day (other than driving it home). Two of those trips I could easily have used transit - but it was late at night, and I could save a bit of time because the roads were empty. And the other was a trip to Guelph with the family to see relatives. Could have easily used AutoShare (which we are member of). Far cheaper than the insurance I paid this month - let alone the cost of the car! It's a luxury. Hmm, I suppose I could have used it to go out to Scarborough Centre the other day ... to tell the truth it never crossed my mind to take it ... I guess it would have saved 10 minutes there and 15 minutes back ...

So you bought a car and you barely use it? So why do you have it? Clearly, you could be "comfortable" without it. Could it be that you consider owning a vehicle a rather reasonable proposition for a middle class family?

In any event, I do believe that families resident along the core or major transit lines don't need personal vehicles. And I don't think any comfort is reasonably taken away from giving up the vehicle. But depending on what part of the city one lives in, car ownership (and its costs) plays very heavily into the definition of a "comfortable" lifestyle.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Kids sharing a bedroom is frugal?

Good grief ... it's this sense of entitlement that's the issue.

Are you sure you're a progressive? Do you realize that Chow's 15,000 new subsidized housing units would be located within new-build mixed income condos, featuring "luxurious" amenities such as central air, dishwashers and ensuite laundry? Would you be happy if the city bought up aging apartment buildings and converted them to RGI units? It would be much cheaper.

 

[picard102]

I really fail to see why some are working so hard hear to defend a right-wing conservative like John Tory. Is this really what you want for this city?

The majority of people do not see him as a right-wing, bigoted, out of touch, monster to be feared. Take a moment to realize that maybe not everyone shares your views on him, despite how right you think you are. Not everyone is as ideologically mired.

 

[kEiThZ]

This is a massive problem that nobody talks about. What are all those lower-middle income people in the city going to do once they are forced to retire with not much in the way of savings and a pension that can barely pay for rent, let alone food and other expenses? Do we tell them that they cannot live in Toronto?

To be absolutely honest, this might have to be considered. Reality is this: Canadians are house poor. Vast majority of their wealth is in their homes. Not much of it in liquid cash. Our pathetic savings rate, doesn't show this situation reversing any time soon.

The only way out in these circustances is to churn urban housing. Couple retires? They cash out the 416 home, buy a nice condo in the 905 and bank the savings. In the process, they open up a spot for a young family starting out.

Macroeconomic forces are unlikely to change any time soon. We may end up with a housing crunch. But it's not likely to lower prices as much as people think. Certainly not enough to reverse the problem you've put forward. And people don't seem to be resorting to renting. So that leaves churn as the only option. Only the lucky few will be able to pay off their home, raise a family and save for their retirement all at the same time.

 

[kEiThZ]

Are you sure you're a progressive? Do you realize that Chow's 15,000 new subsidized housing units would be located within new-build mixed income condos, featuring "luxurious" amenities such as central air, dishwashers and ensuite laundry? Would you be happy if the city bought up aging apartment buildings and converted them to RGI units? It would be much cheaper.

Not just that. Most community housing won't allow siblings of opposite gender to share a room and they won't allow two siblings of the same gender past 18 to share a room. Force you to take a bigger place. Perhaps nfitz should let them know that their standards need to be lowered.

 

[Ramako]

Kids sharing a bedroom is frugal?

Good grief ... it's this sense of entitlement that's the issue. Kids all over the world have shared bedrooms. When people used to have 5 kids, do you think they used to have 6 bedrooms?

I've known many people who grew up their entire life sharing a room (some 3 to a room!) - at least if same gender. Seemed comfortable enough.

Again, it's certainly doable, but I don't know if anyone I've met would consider that comfortable. We also no longer live in a society where people typically have more than a couple kids.

Anyway, listen, I can't argue with your personal experience, but in my personal experience I'd bet that most people in... probably the entire First World, would consider your view on this completely out of touch. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Again, it's certainly doable, but I don't know if anyone I've met would consider that comfortable. We also no longer live in a society where people typically have more than a couple kids.

Anyway, listen, I can't argue with your personal experience, but in my personal experience I'd bet that most people in... probably the entire western World, would consider your view on this completely out of touch. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Apparently, so do most Torontonians answering CTV's polls:

 

[kEiThZ]

The majority of people do not see him as a right-wing, bigoted, out of touch, monster to be feared. Take a moment to realize that maybe not everyone shares your views on him, despite how right you think you are. Not everyone is as ideologically mired.

Most Chow supporters are desperate to paint Tory as some "wolf in sheep's clothing" right-wing nut. They are going all out to equate Tory and Ford. That's the new talking point. You see it everywhere from Chow supporters.

The NDP honed this tactic at the federal level where they routinely equate the Liberals with the Conservatives.

Not too many people will fall for it. And it only makes Chow and her supporters look more desperate and hysterical.

 

[StatGeek]

To get back to the overall Mayoral race

The latest mainstreet numbers on decided voters are Tory 43%v, Ford 32%^, Chow 24%^, and other 3%. That's a total of 102%, that's some odd Ford math there

Forum has decided voters as, Tory 44%^, Ford 33%v, Chow 23%^, and other 4 %

I personally give a total so far of Tory 44, Ford 30, Chow 24, and other/Goldkind 2%

 

[kEiThZ]

I wouldn't get too complacent. I have a feeling this is going to be far tighter than most expect. The only way this ends comfortably is if Chow finishes below 20%. And I'm not so sure that will happen.

Obviously since I support Tory, I want him to win. But whoever wins, I'd like for once, for them to have a rather strong mandate. Winning on 35% just ensures that Queen's Park and the Feds don't take them all that seriously.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How about likely voters?