[NorthYorkEd]

I know this image depicts a shovel. But damned if a quick glance doesn't make it look like a hand giving the finger:

 

[Admiral Beez]

Up Yours! Courtesy of Olivia Chow.

Some idiot on the campaign approved that.

 

[kEiThZ]

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."


For all the vitriole spewed against Ford supporters, there's something to be said for people who feel so disenfranchised that they are willing to vote for him. Or the people who are so fed up with slow transit that they'll gamble a vote on him for even building a few kms of subway.

This is why I've said, time and time again, that the powers that be (Metrolinx, TTC planners) need to start considering voter intent in their transit planning. DRL, LRT, etc. is all great. But if voters are prioritizing faster commutes and want subways (which is really more a desire for speed than literally a subway), they will keep electing politicians who put up roadblock. The planners need to start engaging and educating the public on their vision, and at the same time, start considering the public's desire for faster transit as well.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Are we going to require every candidate who proposes an idea to spend millions on engineering studies before running for office? It's a serious question. This is a rather serious burden to put on a candidate.

John Tory is getting slagged for something even his opponents have not done. Sure, Ford and Chow both support the DRL. By the standard expected of Tory, one would expect both those candidates to have details on their preferred DRL alignment, including cost.

I'm sort of glad the public is more tolerant about ideas without demanding CMA/PMP level financial forecasting.

Of course not. But the problems with SmartTrack aren't obscure engineering details. Tory and his staff could have easily taken 20 minutes out of their day to drive to Eglinton Avenue West or take an hour or two to head down to City Hall to see if Richview Corridor had been sold off. Heck, they could have even taken 15 seconds to do a Google Search. The fact that Tory and his team did not know about the status of Richview Corridor is an incredible display of recklessness on the part of John Tory and his team. Tory very nearly lost my vote because of it (he still has my vote). If Tory and his team are so carless that they can't take a few seconds to research the status of Richview Corridor for his $8 Billion plan, can you imagine how careless Tory will be once he's mayor? There is absolutely no excuse for this mistake. If Tory were working in the private sector and he proposed this nonsense he'd probably be fired on the spot.

What made it even worse is how long it took Tory to acknowledge that he screwed up. A huge mistake can be forgiven; Tory and his team are only human. But to make such an obvious mistake and not admit it until the media back you into a corner is pathetic, disgraceful and reflects poorly on the character of the man.

 

[BurlOak]

This is why I've said, time and time again, that the powers that be (Metrolinx, TTC planners) need to start considering voter intent in their transit planning. DRL, LRT, etc. is all great. But if voters are prioritizing faster commutes and want subways (which is really more a desire for speed than literally a subway), they will keep electing politicians who put up roadblock. The planners need to start engaging and educating the public on their vision, and at the same time, start considering the public's desire for faster transit as well.

So many people do not realize that the want (need) for subways is not literally a desire for HRT subways, it is a desire for speed and lack of transfer if they are are continuing along a continuous route taken by the majority of travellers. There was no criticism of the Ford-McGuinty Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown (except for cost), because it was fast and continuous. It was the manipulation of the public's desires that lead Stintz, DeBaermaker, Murray, Hunter and Wynne to propose an actual subway. A similar sentiment is yielding benefits for Mr. Tory. People in Etobicoke do not need an underground SmartTrack that curves onto the GO corridor, but they did demand better and faster than the on-street LRT. Since Tory was the only one to propose anything better than the on-street LRT, he reaps the rewards.

Both in Scarborough and Etobicoke there were easy solutions to save Billions over what is currently being proposed, but since planners did not suggest any ways of satisfying the public's demands, we end up with solutions proposed by politicians.

 

[Sketch]

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."


For all the vitriole spewed against Ford supporters, there's something to be said for people who feel so disenfranchised that they are willing to vote for him. Or the people who are so fed up with slow transit that they'll gamble a vote on him for even building a few kms of subway.

This is why I've said, time and time again, that the powers that be (Metrolinx, TTC planners) need to start considering voter intent in their transit planning. DRL, LRT, etc. is all great. But if voters are prioritizing faster commutes and want subways (which is really more a desire for speed than literally a subway), they will keep electing politicians who put up roadblock. The planners need to start engaging and educating the public on their vision, and at the same time, start considering the public's desire for faster transit as well.

The thing is the subway's speed itself would not be as fast as perceived by the general public. There's this whole misconception that the subways are going to be significantly faster than the LRT.

According to the Scarborough Rapid Transit Options July 12, 2013 p.17. http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2013/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-60240.pdf

The projected speeds are:
Subways- 40km/hr
LRT- 36km/hr

Travel Time (From Kennedy To Sheppard):
Subways-10mins
LRT-15mins


The differences are negligible. When we compare the Eglinton Crosstown LRT the speeds are:

Eglington Crosstown LRT- 28km/hr
Downtown Subway- 24km/hr

http://www.thecrosstown.ca/the-project/fact-sheets/crosstown-infographic

So this whole notion that subways are faster than LRTs and are worth the extra billions is a farce.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

For all the vitriole spewed against Ford supporters, there's something to be said for people who feel so disenfranchised that they are willing to vote for him. Or the people who are so fed up with slow transit that they'll gamble a vote on him for even building a few kms of subway.

There is far more to be said about individuals who will vote for snake oil that failed to deliver despite all the warnings. Gambles like these breaks nations and start wars, in other times and other contexts. Let's not spin BS votes and four years of wasted time into some sort of moral victory that it isn't.

AoD

 

[Greg Banks]

Of course not. But the problems with SmartTrack aren't obscure engineering details. Tory and his staff could have easily taken 20 minutes out of their day to drive to Eglinton Avenue West or take an hour or two to head down to City Hall to see if Richview Corridor had been sold off. Heck, they could have even taken 15 seconds to do a Google Search. The fact that Tory and his team did not know about the status of Richview Corridor is an incredible display of recklessness on the part of John Tory and his team. Tory very nearly lost my vote because of it (he still has my vote). If Tory and his team are so carless that they can't take a few seconds to research the status of Richview Corridor for his $8 Billion plan, can you imagine how careless Tory will be once he's mayor? There is absolutely no excuse for this mistake. If Tory were working in the private sector and he proposed this nonsense he'd probably be fired on the spot.

What made it even worse is how long it took Tory to acknowledge that he screwed up. A huge mistake can be forgiven; Tory and his team are only human. But to make such an obvious mistake and not admit it until the media back you into a corner is pathetic, disgraceful and reflects poorly on the character of the man.

You want to what is more disappointing....the fire sale pricing D Ford and Build Toronto got (24.3M) for three pieces of prime development land on the Richview ROW and the undevelopment that is now taking place. It totally flies in face of D Ford's campaign pledge of 9 "revenue tools"...think of the funds for "air rights" "undeveloped city land" "tax incremental financing" "development charges" that he is foregoing by piecemeal selling of the Richview ROW (there are three more pieces Build Toronto is looking to sell) with no coherent view to development of Eglinton from Scarlett to 427

 

[ehlow]

You want to what is more disappointing....the fire sale pricing D Ford and Build Toronto got (24.3M) for three pieces of prime development land on the Richview ROW and the undevelopment that is now taking place. It totally flies in face of D Ford's campaign pledge of 9 "revenue tools"...think of the funds for "air rights" "undeveloped city land" "tax incremental financing" "development charges" that he is foregoing by piecemeal selling of the Richview ROW (there are three more pieces Build Toronto is looking to sell) with no coherent view to development of Eglinton from Scarlett to 427

Bulldoze it

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The thing is the subway's speed itself would not be as fast as perceived by the general public. There's this whole misconception that the subways are going to be significantly faster than the LRT.

According to the Scarborough Rapid Transit Options July 12, 2013 p.17. http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2013/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-60240.pdf

The projected speeds are:
Subways- 40km/hr
LRT- 36km/hr

Travel Time (From Kennedy To Sheppard):
Subways-10mins
LRT-15mins


The differences are negligible. When we compre the Eglinton Crosstown LRT the speeds are:

Eglington Crosstown LRT- 28km/hr
Downtown Subway- 24km/hr

http://www.thecrosstown.ca/the-project/fact-sheets/crosstown-infographic

So this whole notion that subways are faster than LRTs and are worth the extra billions is a farce.

I would use the Scarboro potion of the Eglinton Crosstown every day. I calculated that the decision to go with the LRT adds something like 3 minutes onto my trip. That only means that I get to enjoy part of one more song on my commute. To all these people that wanted to spend $3 Billion (or whatever the amount was) and cancel two other rapid transit projects to bury ECLRT my reaction was more or less:

 

[ehlow]

I would use the Scarboro potion of the Eglinton Crosstown every day. I calculated that the decision to go with the LRT adds something like 3 minutes onto my trip. That only means that I get to enjoy part of one more song on my commute. To all these people that wanted to spend $3 Billion (or whatever the amount was) and cancel two other rapid transit projects to bury ECLRT my reaction was more or less:

Well you could easily make the Scarborough LRT as fast as the Scarborough subway, and make it cheaper at the same time: remove the stops that the subway removes.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Bulldoze it

I completely support that option. We should go rent a few bulldozers on the weekend and get started.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well you could easily make the Scarborough LRT as fast as the Scarborough subway, and make it cheaper at the same time: remove the stops that the subway removes.

Exactly. Without all those extra stops the LRT has it would probably be only seconds slower than the subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think this line from the Star's endorsement of Tory best lays out why Toronto should be voting for Tory.

At this time in Toronto’s history the city needs a diplomat and a unifier; a skilled administrator with a social conscience; and a compelling urban advocate. This city needs John Tory as its mayor.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I think this line from the Star's endorsement of Tory best lays out why Toronto should be voting for Tory.

What's really sad is how betrayed Chow Nation feels.
They can't admit their gal ran a bad campaign and they can't admit that, as The Star says:
Either Olivia Chow or John Tory could make a fine mayor for Toronto. But at this time, with the challenges the city faces now, we believe Tory is the clear choice to bring Toronto together, make progress on the key issues and put the chaos of the past four years behind us.

For them, the Star just got it "wrong."
Agreeing to disagree isn't in their vocabulary. Just like Ford Nation, folks. Sorry.

This isn't a math question with an objective answer, it's a matter of subjective opinion and you guys are in the minority. Accept it, get over it. The city will be OK.