[nohostages]

I would use the Scarboro potion of the Eglinton Crosstown every day. I calculated that the decision to go with the LRT adds something like 3 minutes onto my trip. That only means that I get to enjoy part of one more song on my commute. To all these people that wanted to spend $3 Billion (or whatever the amount was) and cancel two other rapid transit projects to bury ECLRT my reaction was more or less:

Watch that Scarborough potion Tiger... I think thats what iola drank.

 

[salsa]

Ann Hui @annhui
"I don't pay any attention to the Toronto Star," Doug says of Star endorsement of Tory. #topoli

 

[freshcutgrass]

However, on the transit profile, it was highly evident in debates that she does not understand transit issues, transit infrastructure and transit planning.

That's because she's the only one being honest about it...and that confuses everyone. ha ha

She the only one who knows an unfunded transit plan is not a transit plan. She's the only one who understands it's a transit SYSTEM...not just subways, subways, subways.

She knows these things because she forgot more about transit issues than those other two will ever know (might have something to do with those 14 years experience on council).

Yes a populist. NIMBYism is populism. Mothers with strollers in order to create sympathy for her bus plan is populism. Threatening that rival transit plans will bulldoze entire neighborhoods is populism. Her entire campaign over the past two months has been a negative campaign focused on scare-mongering, ie. populism.

No...that isn't populism at all. She sticks to her guns on policies regardless of how popular they may be. That is a hallmark of her career. Saying her entire campaign is focussed on scare-mongering is a bit odd, considering how many people are complaining about her going on about "the children" and whatnot. The only scaremongering going on is all this talk about strategic voting for Tory.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Because my friend....politics is the place one does not want to play games with one's principals. Vote for what you support....not what you don't support.

Not that there's really much chance of Ford winning even if you vote for Chow, but there's another way around it. Just make sure you support your local councillor. It's a weak mayor system, so as long as the good councillors are voting it doesn't matter if Ford won, because council will do what they did to his brother...essentially ignore him and have a "mayorless" city.

I've repeated myself here but I respectfully disagree. I think what I said elsewhere is to write poetry if you want to express what's deep in your heart. If you want to get something done, you vote for a desirable outcome. Municipally we at least vote directly but if I want Stephen Harper to be PM federally, I can't vote for him. I can look at my own riding and be realistic.

don't get me wrong - I have respect for people who vote their heart, I just also respect people who vote - not out of FEAR - but with a sense of practicality. I don't think "strategic voting" is illegitimate or counter-productive. You know who hates it? Losers. I said it before and I saw a newspaper article mention it today (I forget which) but if Olivia was just ahead of Doug the Tory voters would be flocking to her and no one would be complaining about it. But she couldn't get herself into that position.

(Council is a whole other matter. Some wards are toss-ups but, of course, incumbency rules there. It requires a concerted effort to unseat someone, not wishful thinking and idealism.)

That's because she's the only one being honest about it...and that confuses everyone. ha ha

She the only one who knows an unfunded transit plan is not a transit plan. She's the only one who understands it's a transit SYSTEM...not just subways, subways, subways.

She knows these things because she forgot more about transit issues than those other two will ever know (might have something to do with those 14 years experience on council).

You've obviously never heard Tory speak as head of CivicAction or you'd know this is false. I have to concede that Campaign Tory has been rather less forthcoming and I certainly appreciate the work Olivia has done (tabling a private member's bill for a national transit strategy, for example) but all you're really doing is making Doug's argument.

Indeed, I wish she HAD been more honest about the costs and talked about revenue tools. I'd like to see Tory have done it too and I think it's unfortunate Ford has so poisoned we can't discuss it honestly but Olivia wasn't talking about revenue tools and she wasn't talking about how she can't promise taxes may have to rise well above the rate of inflation. She was trying to have it both ways (I think that's the populism someone else was referring too) and that's where she lost out. She needed to be more progressive, is I guess what I'm saying, and the two things Ari Goldkind deserves credit for are taking it to Doug on the anti-Semtiism issue and saying the things Olivia wouldn't say about taxes.

Again, I wouldn't personally mind her as mayor but I think you're missing why she's in the place she is.

 

[nohostages]

Feel free to disagree. But like it or not, it's going to be tough sell a former NDP MP and widow of the NDP party leader as a moderate. So yes, for a lot of people she's very firmly to the left. Mind you I don't think she's so far to the left to be unpalatable, but the reality is that for most, she's not closer to the centre than Tory. And that's a hard turn, snapping back from this crazy right turn we took four years ago.

From ford to Chow is a hairpin turn to the left. And it usually happens that way. She expected a coronation I bet she wished she kept her old job. If she could have captured the dismay of most after ford era and tied it to her labour, feminist, immigrant, fan base she could have cakewalked to CH. I honestly think we will find out later that she was ill or something. She is not her old self. ( I am nearly 50 and I know I would not have the energy for that kind of campaign) maybe she is tired.

 

[SunriseChampion]

I should introduce you to my facebook feed. The real scaremongering going on there is being perpetrated by those who would have us believe that John Tory is the second coming of Rob Ford, going as far as saying that we would be better off with Doug Ford as mayor instead of Tory.

Now, that is some ridiculous scaremongering, by any measure. Sure, the call to strategically vote for Tory while trying to assure people that that is the only way to prevent a Ford mayoralty may be fearmongering, but it is nowhere as illogically and unreasonably rabid (serious foaming at the mouth, I'm talking here) as the fearmongering being perpetrated by those who think that John Tory is some sort of twin of the Fords with an even more insiduous agenda. It's pathetic at best, Ford Nation-like at worst.

*shrug* I'm still not voting Tory in any case. (being TJ's proverbial poet and all)

 

[salsa]

MTown, why not post a few of these Chow Nation comments for us to see?

 

[SunriseChampion]

I honestly don't know how to take snippets of screen shot. I swear I used to have a tool for it, but there's this gem:

Augustus Oktavius Well, better Olivia.

Or better Ford because he, like his brother, might lose control of council and would therefore be easier to beat when he tries to implement this shit.

But if Tory does win, instead of partying, it might make more sense to take the rest of the day to go to the library, go to a park, take the TTC, take a look at a fire department, or, if you live in social housing, just go home and enjoy some time in your apartment. Basically, take some time to really enjoy these things like it's the last time you're ever going to see them, because it's entirely possible that it will be.

Then, get a good night's sleep, because you'll all have a looooooong fight ahead of you for the next 4 years.


+++++++++

Then there are gratuitious links to toryisatory.tumblr.com which, after you get past all the unreasonable memes (which are being blown around ad naseaum) contains this:

The thing that self-proclaimed “progressive” Liberal supporters of the diehard Conservative John Tory cannot comprehend is that real progressives do not want Tory in office, period. They do not see Tory as an improvement over Ford, because Tory is, in fact, not an improvement over Ford.

Ford and Tory would both be terrible mayors, just different. Their main difference is in style, not substance. Both Conservative candidates have policies and outlooks that primarily serve the rich and powerful while screwing over the rest of society. They both want to privatize public services (including healthcare, if they had that ability), want to sabotage the public transit system, want to irresponsibly slash taxes, and want to drastically cut services that benefit the poor, the working class and the environment. They both promote brutal competition and greed over cooperation and pooling our resources for the common good.


++++++


I don't know......sounds pretty...um.......ridiculous to me.

 

[NorthYorkEd]

She just happens to be in a an awful campaign that isn't her style, and she isn't going to change her style (start flip-flopping and BS'ing her way to votes like the other two jackarses).

That's the problem right there. She came out of the gate BS'ing, trying to be something she's not, listening to her handlers rather than being genuine. She played a role and it backfired.

If you love John Tory...fine...vote for him, but please don't tell me you didn't vote for Chow because she can't communicate.

I didn't vote for her because she did not convince me she really wants to be mayor.

 

[PinkLucy]

I had a discussion with a Chow supporter today who led off the discussion by saying that Tory is as bad as Ford. I said no one could be as bad as Ford, and we continued to rationally discuss the mayor's race. She said that although she really likes Chow, she has been disappointed with her seeming lack of passion and finds it odd. She then told me she is trying to convince people to vote for Chow by reminding them if they liked Jack Layton, they should vote Chow because she believes in all of the same things he did.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I had a discussion with a Chow supporter today who led off the discussion by saying that Tory is as bad as Ford. I said no one could be as bad as Ford, and we continued to rationally discuss the mayor's race. She said that although she really likes Chow, she has been disappointed with her seeming lack of passion and finds it odd. She then told me she is trying to convince people to vote for Chow by reminding them if they liked Jack Layton, they should vote Chow because she believes in all of the same things he did.

That's it in a nutshell.
I have friends who love Chow and who were ready to vote for her before she declared. Those people will still vote for her.

What she failed to do is break out of that group which is PRECISELY what she knew she needed to do to get elected; to convince people she wasn't some tax-and-spender, to address suburbs and not just downtown etc. I don't know why people can't wrap their heads around this failure. That's how Rob Ford won too. Not because of Ford Nation but because he convinced a bunch of other people to give him a chance. Now he's back down to that Ford Nation rump, and Olivia never got beyond her Chow Nation rump which, it turns out, is roughly that same 25% of the population. So 25% are Chow Nation and 25% is Ford Nation and the other 50% is up for grabs.

The people I see going on and on and on on social media about how great Chow is (or more precisely, bashing Tory, because that's their m.o. lately) are all people I could have guessed would vote for her. I know other people who would have been inclined to vote for her who basically said, "I don't think her heart is really in it." I haven't met or seen anyone I know, personally or on Twitter or Facebook, who was won over by Chow, myself included.

EDIT: Just to say I just saw this Star editorial, by Sarah Polley and Andrea Addario about why Chow is still the best darn person out there.
And how does it start?
Tory sucks, Tory sucks, Tory sucks , Tory sucks, Tory sucks, Tory sucks.
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...ows_progressive_vision_can_still_triumph.html

What did I just say, like 2 sentences ago about the Chow m.o.?
Right.
It's kind of ironic she's been running a campaign nearly as negative as Doug's but there you go.

Personally I find that article insulting. Don't you care about the children? About buses? About our city? If yes, you are a progressive! And if you are one of us, you should vote for Olivia! Classic fearmongering that proves just the point I was making. It's disappointing on several levels.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I've repeated myself here but I respectfully disagree. I think what I said elsewhere is to write poetry if you want to express what's deep in your heart. If you want to get something done, you vote for a desirable outcome. Municipally we at least vote directly but if I want Stephen Harper to be PM federally, I can't vote for him. I can look at my own riding and be realistic.

I suppose the major flaw in your logic is thinking politics is supposed to emotional (an easy mistake). My heart has little to do with it. If poetry is London, then politics is Tokyo.

Having the courage of my convictions is the most desirable outcome. And there's little at stake...PM's have real power....the mayor of Toronto doesn't.

You've obviously never heard Tory speak as head of CivicAction or you'd know this is false.

Without David Pecaut, that organization just isn't the same. Just another "appointment" to a board for the likes of Tory. And look who his replacement is. Do you really think they give a shite like Pecaut did? Yea...exactly. Is there anything John Tory actually cares about?

Indeed, I wish she HAD been more honest about the costs and talked about revenue tools.

What are you talking about? First of all, she wasn't the one dangling $trillion subway fantasies in the first place, so there's a lot less funding to account for. That's being honest. She did talk revenue sources and tax increases for transit funding, including increasing the LTT, property tax increases and going back to the original Scarb LRT to save the city $1.6 billion. These are all doable, realistic and the smart thing to do. It's also not the "popular" thing to say in a city that's still falling for the "free subways" BS the other two are advocating.

I'm sorry...but characterizing Chow as a populist is one the crazier things I've heard.

Again, I wouldn't personally mind her as mayor but I think you're missing why she's in the place she is.

Oh...I'm not missing a thing.

1/3 of the voters in this city enjoyed the Fords for the last 4 years, and would like another 4 years please and thank you.

 

[hper]

Ford and Tory would both be terrible mayors, just different. Their main difference is in style, not substance....I don't know......sounds pretty...um.......ridiculous to me.

Not when you consider the forelock tugging Tory went cap in hand to Diane Friggin' Ford to get blessed to go for the first time in ought three. There's a political establishment in this city, of which the Fords somehow, inexplicably, seem to occupy a commanding place (beyond ken, but there ye go). JoTo's been a part of it since, like, just after the family compact. He knows which side the bread is buttered, whose hand holds it, and the way it's going to be divvied up. Historically, Toronto politics have been characterized by two ugly forces, the patrician and the nakedly ugly. We are about to be rid of the latter, thank heavens, but shall once again know the dubious charms of the former. Problem is, Toronto is now a bigger city than both of those post-medieval postures engage. It just hasn't figured out how to be that way.

 

[adma]

I should introduce you to my facebook feed. The real scaremongering going on there is being perpetrated by those who would have us believe that John Tory is the second coming of Rob Ford, going as far as saying that we would be better off with Doug Ford as mayor instead of Tory.

But you have to remember: maybe not the Doug Ford angle, but this particular crowd has *always* existed. They're the (mainly downtown urban-progressive) sort who, in the past, have been all too insufferably "what a disaster" worked up over Eggleton vs Sewell, Eggleton vs Johnson, Rowlands vs Layton, Lastman vs Hall, or any other victorious Tory/Republican politician within and beyond the GTAosphere.

And what we're seeing now is a roughed-out "normal" Tory vs Chow race emerging from the stinking swamp arising from the Ford legacy. Factor Ford out and you already have an approximation of how things'd be were it a strict Tory-Chow race--people voting "strategically" for Tory on raw winner vs loser grounds, Ford notwithstanding...

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I suppose the major flaw in your logic is thinking politics is supposed to emotional (an easy mistake). My heart has little to do with it. If poetry is London, then politics is Tokyo.

Having the courage of my convictions is the most desirable outcome. And there's little at stake...PM's have real power....the mayor of Toronto doesn't.

My point about the PM was that s/he is elected by first-past-the-post, not directly, whereas the mayor is.

Anyway, I sincerely admire you or anyone else having the courage of their convictions. Some people vote out of selfish self-interest, like the notion someone will reduce their taxes, regardless of what that means on a broad scale. I don't think politics is supposed to be emotional, au contraire. What could be LESS emotional than a purely strategic decision? Most of the time it's a compliment when we say, "He acted strategically." That said, spend a few minutes surfing #TOpoli and tell me it's not emotional. Read the Polley/Addario article I just posted and tell me it's not emotional.

Without David Pecaut, that organization just isn't the same. Just another "appointment" to a board for the likes of Tory. And look who his replacement is. Do you really think they give a shite like Pecaut did? Yea...exactly. Is there anything John Tory actually cares about?

Everyone can watch Tory and make their own call. I've seen enough of him to trust him that far. YMMV.
I heard him speak many times, with CivicAction, about revenue tools and other regional issues and I am convinced he has a firm grip on these areas. He hasn't shown that in the campaign, but, yes, I really think he gives a shite. I think he and Chow have different "visions" of the city but they both care about the city in its entirety. You disagree, that's cool, but I'm not just making it up based on a gut feeling.

What are you talking about? First of all, she wasn't the one dangling $trillion subway fantasies in the first place, so there's a lot less funding to account for. That's being honest. She did talk revenue sources and tax increases for transit funding, including increasing the LTT, property tax increases and going back to the original Scarb LRT to save the city $1.6 billion. These are all doable, realistic and the smart thing to do. It's also not the "popular" thing to say in a city that's still falling for the "free subways" BS the other two are advocating.

So, OK, her transit plan is to cancel the LRT - first stopping its progress, bringing it back to council, voting on it again etc. etc. I think it's pointless, as much as I hate the decision, but I get that it saves money....that's ironic, given who she is, but OK. And then she wants more buses which, yes, we also need.

Tory's financing is undoubtedly suspect but as I've said elsewhere, all he's done is take a little part of an existing provincial plan and "pimp it up" for Toronto voters. SmartTrack is almost certainly impossible, as presented, but some close variant of it is inevitable. personally, I'd like to have seen Chow lay out a plan that included buses and LRT and subway with concrete plans for revenue tools to fund them. You may count increasing the LTT on $2M+ homes; I think it's penny-ante. That's what a "real progressive" would have done, IMHO. But she drank the Kool Aid and tried to play on the Ford's field, and it didn't work.

I'm not disrespecting her, merely explaining why I think she's ended up where she has.

It's funny - to reiterate the point I just made above: I'm watching the Twitter fall-out from the Polley article, people saying how GOOD it is. I've seen two people say it's stronger than the Tory endorsement the same paper just ran. But you know who's saying that? NOW Magazine writers. People who loved Chow anyway. People are just seeing their own reflection in it. I'm not saying YOU, but these people who were always going to vote for Chow and literally cannot fathom how a centrist could vote for Tory. It sincerely reminds me of the Ford Nation types who think he's an honest politician, so great is the cognitive dissonance. They're just living in an echo chamber. Kinda sad, really.