[maudlin]

I thought the subway costs included some extra repair work to keep the SRT running. How unreliable is it now? I would think people would still prefer to have it running and breaking down occasionally than shut down for years.

Maybe they can run the buses that would've gone to STC or Lawrence East station to run to Kennedy station instead to make up for it if it's shut down.

It's not just maintenance of the tracks. The vehicles themselves are on their last legs. They don't make those vehicles or parts for them any more, IIRC.

 

[CN Tower]

So let me get this straight: firstly, you're contradicting the experts when you say that the subway is the best way to spend our precious tax dollars. It's actually it's a huge waste of our tax $, but you just want an underground limousine free of charge, you socialist!

That's not all though: you also just demonstrated that you don't understand how property tax works. The City calculates how much it needs, and rates are set accordingly. Furthermore, more density means more people consuming more services which cost more money (isn't this the sort of thing you hate?)

Not really sure why you're still here; all you do is repeat the same tired old lies and/or misunderstandings. If UT is really the hotbed of socialists you apparently believe it to be, what exactly are you hoping to achieve? Faced with a well-informed centrist/left-leaning crowd, are you really expecting that anything you say is going to persuade anyone of anything really other than what UT regulars already know?

I'd be a lot gentler in suggesting you rethink the subway if not for your abject failure to abandon the Chow co-op lie. You're wrong, and you know you're wrong. Stop spreading things you know to be untrue.

Property taxes will rise because high density projects will get built over the subway. Like on Bloor. Like on Yonge. Like on Sheppard. That's how property taxes work.

I agree that didn't work out so well on Danforth but I suspect the issue has more to do with the community's resistance than real market demand.

As far as Olivia Chow, her rent was subsidized because the entire building enjoyed a subsidy. That's not a proper place for a high income couple to be living in opinion. She voluntarily raised it before being embarrassed into doing it. It's not the end of the world but it something she should own up to.

A far bigger issue would be an agenda set by her that would see skyrocketing tax rates on property, user fees, and union friendly deals sure to bankrupt this city.

I don't have much concern for this however because once the public at large gets wind of her obvious agenda she will be no more a serious contender than Ford.

 

[Johnny Au]

Yeah, whoever is running Stintz' Twitter account (and I hope it's just an intern and not Stintz herself, although that would be hilarious) needs to realize that screen caps live forever!

I look forward to many such reversals ... flip-flops, you might say ... on her part.

Not just that, but the Library of Congress is archiving all tweets ever made, including the most embarrassing ones, allowing future anthropologists to study Stintz.

 

[ehlow]

There are several years of EA/planning and construction ahead for the subway plan. It would not be in service until 2023 (possibly later, if there are over-runs -- which, BTW, Toronto would have to pay for itself. The feds and the province are not on the hook for over-runs at ALL.) The SRT will not last that long. Whether we choose LRT or subway, people are spending some years on shuttle buses.

But LRT means service starts by 2019 (instead of 2023), the route goes further east and north in Scarborough, it will provide good service, and it will cost much less. If we get extra TTC funding, it can go to the DRL, other lines or general service improvements.

Are you sure? What's your source that the SRT will be shut down before the subway opens? I was under the impression that with the subway plan they extend the life of the SRT until 2023.

The difference is that the subway is on a different route, so it can be built while the SRT is operational. Since the LRT is on the same route, the SRT must be shut down to convert it.

 

[ehlow]

Property taxes will rise because high density projects will get built over the subway. Like on Bloor. Like on Yonge. Like on Sheppard. That's how property taxes work.

I agree that didn't work out so well on Danforth but I suspect the issue has more to do with the community's resistance than real market demand.

There were definitely not many high density developments on Bloor or the Danforth. I'd say 80% of the Bloor-line didn't have any significant amount of high density development. That's because there are single family homes there.

McCowan has single family homes as well in many areas, and these days it's even more difficult to develop tall condos where single family homes are, due to both planning laws and the price of the homes.

I don't think we'll see a huge amount of redevelopment due to the subway.

 

[maudlin]

According to this July 2013 report (PDF), the original plan was to shut down the SRT in 2016 to build the LRT. (See the bottom of page 15.) There is nothing I can find in that document that describes any additional investment that would keep the SRT going after 2016. This doesn't mean that the SRT turns into a pumpkin in 2016, but it is clear that this year is pretty close to the end of its estimated lifespan.

Page 17 mentions that an advantage of the subway route is "no need" to shut down the SRT during construction -- because a different route would be used -- but it doesn't say that they expect the SRT to keep running until 2023. (The table at the bottom of the page is a nice feature comparison.)

(Top of page 18 talks about ridership projections assuming the DRL is in place, among other things. Really, this is an excellent overall source.)

Bottom of page 18:

Scarborough RT

A key consideration raised is that the current Scarborough RT's vehicles have reached the end of their normal lifespan after thirty years in operation. The Scarborough RT line has been required to operate at reduced speed and capacity owing to the deteriorated state of the RT vehicles. The need for major investment to upgrade the Scarborough RT is becoming a critical situation requiring a timely response.

If you have any sources showing not just that people expect to keep the SRT going until 2023 but that experts say they have the technology and money to actually deliver, please share! I have not been able to find anything yet.

 

[ehlow]

According to this July 2013 report (PDF), the original plan was to shut down the SRT in 2016 to build the LRT. (See the bottom of page 15.) There is nothing I can find in that document that describes any additional investment that would keep the SRT going after 2016. This doesn't mean that the SRT turns into a pumpkin in 2016, but it is clear that this year is pretty close to the end of its estimated lifespan.

Page 17 mentions that an advantage of the subway route is "no need" to shut down the SRT during construction -- because a different route would be used -- but it doesn't say that they expect the SRT to keep running until 2023. (The table at the bottom of the page is a nice feature comparison.)

(Top of page 18 talks about ridership projections assuming the DRL is in place, among other things. Really, this is an excellent overall source.)

Bottom of page 18:


If you have any sources showing not just that people expect to keep the SRT going until 2023 but that experts say they have the technology and money to actually deliver, please share! I have not been able to find anything yet.

Thanks for the info. I've asked Steve Munro on this post: http://stevemunro.ca/?p=9375. I'll paste the answer when he answers.

If it is true that the SRT will fall apart before the subway opens, then that takes away a big argument for the subway option.

 

[edmundoconnor]

I would not expect anyone has given the operation of the SRT much thought. Actual joined-up thinking is beyond the mayor's office, or the province, come to that. Give them a subway, and to hell with the consequences. The SRT's daily operation relies on hope, prayer, and chewing gum.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I would not expect anyone has given the operation of the SRT much thought. Actual joined-up thinking is beyond the mayor's office, or the province, come to that. Give them a subway, and to hell with the consequences. The SRT's daily operation relies on hope, prayer, and chewing gum.

And that is today, let alone 2023.

The SRT is past its expiration date and then some. maudlin's claim that SRT users will likely have to experience some years of shuttle bus even with the subway route probably has some credence.

 

[ehlow]

If it is true that the SRT will fail before the subway opens, someone should've told city council . During their debates, the lack of shut down period was considered a big advantage of the subway option.

 

[adma]

Ah, nothing like the double-barrelled discussion-forum fungus of CN Tower and Glen to drive a thread into drearyville. (And remember, folks: CN Tower's the sort prone to quoting from these kinds of sources.)

 

[innsertnamehere]

The SRT will NOT be replaced with shuttle buses on the subway plan. The TTC, as part of the subway budget, will be doing some life extension work on the SRT (To the tune of around $150 millions worth) to ensure it lasts until 2023. no sources, but it was a major reason a lot of councillors voted for the subway rather than the LRT and I did see it on a budget somewhere at one point.

 

[ehlow]

The SRT will NOT be replaced with shuttle buses on the subway plan. The TTC, as part of the subway budget, will be doing some life extension work on the SRT (To the tune of around $150 millions worth) to ensure it lasts until 2023. no sources, but it was a major reason a lot of councillors voted for the subway rather than the LRT and I did see it on a budget somewhere at one point.

That's what I thought! Thanks for confirming.

 

[maudlin]

Thanks! I'm still looking for some documents just because council has a bit of a track record of being distracted by shiny things. I might check in the RT thread here to see if anyone else has dug something up.

EDIT: Oh, wow. That thread started in 2005. Painful.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Thanks! I'm still looking for some documents just because council has a bit of a track record of being distracted by shiny things. I might check in the RT thread here to see if anyone else has dug something up.

EDIT: Oh, wow. That thread started in 2005. Painful.

A lot of councillors put more thought into supporting this or not more than you would think. the mad "reasoning" of Ford sort of drowned out any legitimate reasoning behind the subway, leading many to believe that if someone supported the subway they supported it because "scarborough deserves it" or some other stupid reason.