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I find it a little bit amusing that Doug Ford is laughing at John Tory getting endorsements, while Doug himself really has no business people endorsing him. He says that the business people and "high rollers" are not going with him and his brother.

Yet, the Fords kept saying that the city should be looking to turn over more of the city's functions to the private sector. Doesn't he want to get endorsements from those people who may want to do business with the city?

Who will follow him, if he keeps shutting the door to the people Ford wants the city to do business with?
 
Admiral Beez said:
I don't get this aversion to strategic voting. We make strategic decisions everyday concerning least-worst choices.

Even with ranked ballots you'll still have strategic voting, as a lot of people will choose their first and second picks based on attempts to block the candidates they don't want. You can try to prevent this by banning polls (impossible in today's interconnected world, IMO), but people will still try.
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I agree.
It's unfortunate they system requires people to make a choice that may entail them not picking the person they like best - and I strongly advocate for ranked balloting in 2018 - but operating within the current system, I can't fathom why it's a plus to vote non-strategically.

As you say, we all make less-than-optimal choices every day.
"I really want to go shop at Loblaw's tomorrow but all the things on my shopping list are on sale at Longo's. Also, Longo's is closer, even though I really like those PC products...Oh well, I guess I'll go to Longo's.

Oh - that's so terrible to hear you love Loblaw's but had to shop strategically!
Usually, doing something strategically is the right thing to do. Most of the people opposed to it (far as I can tell) are Chow supporters, fearful that she'd be a great mayor but no one thinks she can win so they'll vote for Tory. And they're right. But if they were the front-runner and Tory was in third I suspect their viewpoint on the matter would be rather different.

As I said in another post, it's a much bigger issue at the fed/prov level where first-past-the-post means being an NDP die-hard in a riding where they poll 5% means you probably really will be "wasting" your vote in a way. But in this specific election, you have to factor a lot of things into why you vote a certain way and then choose what to do.

The point of voting is to achieve an outcome and the most-wanted outcome in Toronto is no-Fords and Olivia failed to place herself in position to benefit from that by making conscious choices. The reality is that voting for her is not likely to make her mayor at this point. So, if you're outcome-oriented, vote strategically. If you want to express your heart's deepest desires, try poetry.
 
I normally strongly dislike strategic voting because I see it as a sad symptom of our sham electoral system. However, my facebook feed is now so full of ridiculous and illogical foaming at the mouth by Olivia Chow supporters fear-mongering about the apocalypse that is a Tory victory, some even stating that we would be better off with Ford for mayor, that I now fully endorse people's choice for strategically voting for Tory. Some of those people I run into on facebook need to have it shoved down their throats for being such irrational twits.
 
MTown said:
I normally strongly dislike strategic voting because I see it as a sad symptom of our sham electoral system. However, my facebook feed is now so full of ridiculous and illogical foaming at the mouth by Olivia Chow supporters fear-mongering about the apocalypse that is a Tory victory, some even stating that we would be better off with Ford for mayor, that I now fully endorse people's choice for strategically voting for Tory. Some of those people I run into on facebook need to have it shoved down their throats for being such irrational twits.
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Yup.

They've essentially become a Bizarro World Ford Nation.
 
MTown said:
Hey, TJ, if I already write poetry, can I still vote for Ari Goldkind?
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Arguably voting for Goldkind IS poetry :)

I have zero problem with people voting for Tory or Chow or Goldkind if that person is someone they believe in; more power to em!

But, we live in the real world and make all sorts of "strategic" decisions in our lives so I also don't have a problem if someone likes Goldkind's ideas but realizes the more practical move is to vote for Tory. As you just said, too many people are getting hysterical about it (and hysterical about Tory-as-Ford which is both as stupid and ignorant, IMHO, as suggesting Chow is like Stalin). It's as legitimate a reason to vote for someone as any; it's an informed choice, which is more than can be said for someone who votes for Ford because "He's the only honest politician."

Hopefully ranked balloting will make this all academic in 2018 but, for now, we have this system and strategic voters shouldn't be slammed for navigating it as they see fit.

(And on the Chow thing, I am legitimately shocked at some of the anti-Tory stuff coming, even from otherwise intelligent people on #TOpoli etc. Shocked - like these people really think he "Doesn't believe in white privilege" and has the same philosophy as the Fords, just without the personal foibles. He has ALWAYS been a red Tory, and tried to put the "Progressive" back in the PC party, to little avail. To suggest he is anything like the Fords ...you'd have to suggest his work with United Way and other charities, not to mention CivicActionis equivalent to Doug handing out $20s and Rob showing up at TCH buildings. Tory does not deserve that, as far as I'm concerned.
Linda McQuaig put out a thing the other day saying (I forget the exact wording) "You, Toronto, want a progressive leader so vote for Olivia!" And the academic leftist arrogance of telling the city what it wants was just so insulting...and I say that as someone who considers himself pretty progressive.

It's hysteria and, yes, little better than Ford Nation in its ideological blindness. the city under Tory will be just fine and it probably would have been fine under chow too. Just chill out, people!)

EDIT: I found the McQuaig thing and I won't post of all it but she says "John Tory is a member of the corporate elite," which is exactly what Doug says, so way to play into his hands, Linda. Then she says the choice will be between "right" and "far-right" and "that's not the choice we want. We want a progressive and we have one in this race named Olivia Chow."
I respect McQuaig as far as it goes but, holy jeeze! Who are YOU to tell people what WE want?! If you were right, she wouldn't be polling at a pathetic 20%, but she is, so accept that not everyone thinks the way you do and, this being a free country, they don't have to either. Ford Nationesque, indeed.
 
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Oh, it's really, really f*cked. At first I was happy that it was just friends of friends and not anyone I knew personally, but then it got dark. Friends of mine had drank the koolaid and started posting the most ignorant and irrational rubbish.

I'm scared to go on facebook for the next week. It really is like Bizarro Ford Nation. Better off with Ford than Tory? How mentally deranged do you have to be to consider that to be truth?
I almost lost my patience and started verbally abusing these people after they refused to listen to my reasoning. *shudder*
facebook is tainted now. :(

Well, TJ.....I'm an artist so why stop now, right? ;)
 
As part of my post-election celebrations (during which I plan on getting wedding drunk), I am now willing to buy a drink or two for anyone I know who voted for Tory, regardless of outcome.
 
MTown said:
As part of my post-election celebrations (during which I plan on getting wedding drunk), I am now willing to buy a drink or two for anyone I know who voted for Tory, regardless of outcome.
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This is one of my favourite posts ever :)
 
MTown said:
As part of my post-election celebrations (during which I plan on getting wedding drunk), I am now willing to buy a drink or two for anyone I know who voted for Tory, regardless of outcome.
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Hilarious stuff! But it would be even funnier (and more in keeping with the general thought process here) if you shared some crack with them.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Arguably voting for Goldkind IS poetry :)

I have zero problem with people voting for Tory or Chow or Goldkind if that person is someone they believe in; more power to em!

But, we live in the real world and make all sorts of "strategic" decisions in our lives so I also don't have a problem if someone likes Goldkind's ideas but realizes the more practical move is to vote for Tory. As you just said, too many people are getting hysterical about it (and hysterical about Tory-as-Ford which is both as stupid and ignorant, IMHO, as suggesting Chow is like Stalin). It's as legitimate a reason to vote for someone as any; it's an informed choice, which is more than can be said for someone who votes for Ford because "He's the only honest politician."

Hopefully ranked balloting will make this all academic in 2018 but, for now, we have this system and strategic voters shouldn't be slammed for navigating it as they see fit.

(And on the Chow thing, I am legitimately shocked at some of the anti-Tory stuff coming, even from otherwise intelligent people on #TOpoli etc. Shocked - like these people really think he "Doesn't believe in white privilege" and has the same philosophy as the Fords, just without the personal foibles. He has ALWAYS been a red Tory, and tried to put the "Progressive" back in the PC party, to little avail. To suggest he is anything like the Fords ...you'd have to suggest his work with United Way and other charities, not to mention CivicActionis equivalent to Doug handing out $20s and Rob showing up at TCH buildings. Tory does not deserve that, as far as I'm concerned.
Linda McQuaig put out a thing the other day saying (I forget the exact wording) "You, Toronto, want a progressive leader so vote for Olivia!" And the academic leftist arrogance of telling the city what it wants was just so insulting...and I say that as someone who considers himself pretty progressive.

It's hysteria and, yes, little better than Ford Nation in its ideological blindness. the city under Tory will be just fine and it probably would have been fine under chow too. Just chill out, people!)

EDIT: I found the McQuaig thing and I won't post of all it but she says "John Tory is a member of the corporate elite," which is exactly what Doug says, so way to play into his hands, Linda. Then she says the choice will be between "right" and "far-right" and "that's not the choice we want. We want a progressive and we have one in this race named Olivia Chow."
I respect McQuaig as far as it goes but, holy jeeze! Who are YOU to tell people what WE want?! If you were right, she wouldn't be polling at a pathetic 20%, but she is, so accept that not everyone thinks the way you do and, this being a free country, they don't have to either. Ford Nationesque, indeed.
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This. And thank you for writing that. Arrogant willful ignorance, and mental myopia is not limited to one political leaning or a particular city area.
 
What I find bizarre is this notion the Chow supporters keep bringing up: if you want a truly progressive option you'll vote for Chow. It's as though they think the public is confusing Tory for a leftist.

Do they really think that everyone wants a progressive alternative to Ford? Most just want a sane centrist or moderate conservative.

Their mistake is assuming that public desire to dump Ford is indication of a hard left turn in public sentiment. It isn't. It's a desire to dump Ford.
 
kEiThZ said:
Their mistake is assuming that public desire to dump Ford is indication of a hard left turn in public sentiment. It isn't. It's a desire to dump Ford.
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And yet this city doesn't vote for the right wing, either provincially or federally. Tory has been rejected by the voters of this city twice before for candidates further left than he is.

Doug would need at least 33% and a miracle to get elected. There's little indication from the polling he'll come in this high. There's no reason for voting for Tory on the risk of electing Ford - unless you like Ford's right-wing policies, with a more socially acceptable face.

I'm not even convinced Ford will come in second in the election, given how the turnout for the advanced poll is going.
 
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