[kEiThZ]

Not sure who you're arguing against...

Not just some on this forum by the way.

Look at advocates like Steve Munro. Years back, many of us had been warning him that speed of service was what the public wanted. Of course, being the transit advocacy God that he is, he roundly dismissed the suggestion. Of course, he (and Miller) knew better with Transit City.

Today, he's fuming at the prospect of a Tory mayoralty pushing Smart Track. He's written several articles attacking Smart Track. And he still remains prickly at the suggestion that the public's desire for speedy transit is what's bumping up Tory, just like it got Ford elected.

I'm gonna enjoy my light Schadenfreude.

Had Metrolinx's first priority been GO electrification and fare and service integration with the TTC, we wouldn't be seeing half the squabbling over transit we see today. Too bad, they wanted to push through a highly politicised LRT to kill a subway first, as their first priority. They gave the Fords an opening.

 

[kEiThZ]

unlike Bonnie Crombie, it seems team Tory isn't about to plant its tanks on CPR's lawn. Unless only one midtown station was built at Dupont, the added load would make the Yonge line worse. Also, Tory would have regard to his Rosedale friends who would freak out at the noise from laying additional track and from train operations.

It's an election. You don't make such controversial ideas. You let Metrolinx make such proposals if needed, when you're in office, and let them take the heat.

 

[ehlow]

Not just some on this forum by the way.

Look at advocates like Steve Munro. Years back, many of us had been warning him that speed of service was what the public wanted. Of course, being the transit advocacy God that he is, he roundly dismissed the suggestion. Of course, he (and Miller) knew better with Transit City.

Today, he's fuming at the prospect of a Tory mayoralty pushing Smart Track. He's written several articles attacking Smart Track. And he still remains prickly at the suggestion that the public's desire for speedy transit is what's bumping up Tory, just like it got Ford elected.

I'm gonna enjoy my light Schadenfreude.

Had Metrolinx's first priority been GO electrification and fare and service integration with the TTC, we wouldn't be seeing half the squabbling over transit we see today. Too bad, they wanted to push through a highly politicised LRT to kill a subway first, as their first priority. They gave the Fords an opening.

I mean... we've been over this a few times already so I won't re-hash too much.

But if you're talking about having local transit with closer stop spacing, I absolutely think there is a place for that within the transit system. I think there's a need for a range of transit types, from local transit like buses, express buses, BRT, LRT, subways, regional rail, and hopefully inter-city rail.

I've read a lot of your comments on this forum and other places, and you seem to think it's LRT vs subway, or LRT vs RER or LRT vs SmartTrack. To me, it's not a "vs" relationship, local and regional transit systems are complementary and co-dependant.

Many support both LRT and Regional Rail on GO corridors (which SmartTrack is), including Steve Munro and John Tory. I don't agree with everything Steve Munro says, but I think he has always advocated utilizing GO tracks more for regional transit, and he definitely supports RER.

Just because someone supports things like LRT or better local transit doesn't mean they're against SmartTrack or better regional transit for suburbanites, as you seem convinced.

 

[salsa]

Not just some on this forum by the way.

Look at advocates like Steve Munro. Years back, many of us had been warning him that speed of service was what the public wanted. Of course, being the transit advocacy God that he is, he roundly dismissed the suggestion. Of course, he (and Miller) knew better with Transit City.

Today, he's fuming at the prospect of a Tory mayoralty pushing Smart Track. He's written several articles attacking Smart Track. And he still remains prickly at the suggestion that the public's desire for speedy transit is what's bumping up Tory, just like it got Ford elected.

I'm gonna enjoy my light Schadenfreude.

Had Metrolinx's first priority been GO electrification and fare and service integration with the TTC, we wouldn't be seeing half the squabbling over transit we see today. Too bad, they wanted to push through a highly politicised LRT to kill a subway first, as their first priority. They gave the Fords an opening.

Steve is a big supporter of GO RER, just not Tory's version of it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Not just some on this forum by the way.

Look at advocates like Steve Munro. Years back, many of us had been warning him that speed of service was what the public wanted. Of course, being the transit advocacy God that he is, he roundly dismissed the suggestion. Of course, he (and Miller) knew better with Transit City.

Today, he's fuming at the prospect of a Tory mayoralty pushing Smart Track. He's written several articles attacking Smart Track. And he still remains prickly at the suggestion that the public's desire for speedy transit is what's bumping up Tory, just like it got Ford elected.

I'm gonna enjoy my light Schadenfreude.

Had Metrolinx's first priority been GO electrification and fare and service integration with the TTC, we wouldn't be seeing half the squabbling over transit we see today. Too bad, they wanted to push through a highly politicised LRT to kill a subway first, as their first priority. They gave the Fords an opening.

I don't know why you're so eager to paint Munro as someone who is against speedier services. He is a huge supporter of our GO RER plan:

RER is probably the best idea Queen’s Park has had in its long history of bungled transit files. For once, we have a proposal whose primary goal is to improve service, not to underwrite some hare-brained economic development strategy or pump money into a specific manufacturer’s product.

Steve is against SmartTrack because it is a poorly thought out plan that, in its current form, will never be built

 

[WislaHD]

I suggest reading on what Steve Munro has said about RER and SmartTrack.

He advocates for SmartTrack to push Metrolynx into making GO RER something similar to what we are suggesting here. Making GO RER a regional surface subway, not a strictly commuters route for the 905 neither a local route. I take this to mean fare integration and more stations within the 416.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Candidates’ transit platforms say nothing about how we’ll pay to run new trains

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...ing_about_how_well_pay_to_run_new_trains.html

.....

- “What scares Metrolinx is not the cost of these things to build — those are big numbers — what really scares them is the 20- to 30-year operating costs along these lines,” he says.

- After decades of resistance, Metrolinx, which runs GO, and the TTC are finally studying fare integration. It’s a critical issue if electrified GO trains are going to stop more frequently in Toronto, as per John Tory’s SmartTrack plan. He’s promising Toronto riders will be able to take the train for the price of a TTC token.

- U of T’s Miller says that doesn’t make any sense. GO fares are already distance-based, and that’s where Toronto should be heading.
“Anywhere else in the world, you pay by distance. You pay by distance by car because you’re burning gas for every kilometre you travel,” he said.

.....

 

[kEiThZ]

I've read a lot of your comments on this forum and other places, and you seem to think it's LRT vs subway, or LRT vs RER or LRT vs SmartTrack. To me, it's not a "vs" relationship, local and regional transit systems are complementary and co-dependant.

I've never said that it's LRT vs. subway. I've said it's one of priorities. What do you build first? To me, the public is screaming for faster transit first. And that's what is disappointing about the LRTs. The LRTs replace a bus going 17 kph, with a long tram going 23 kph with twice the stop spacing of my local bus. You could achieve the same speed right now, by simply chopping the number of bus stops in half along major avenues. That's not really progress.

I've pushed for subway or suburban rail expansion first, because I think this what the public wants and needs, prior to expansion of local and medium haul transit. Once that Metrolinx RER, or Smart Track, or whatever is in place, you'll find very little opposition to LRT expansion. When an LRT that will cost $1 billion (SELRT) and replaces just one bus corridor with a large tram that goes just 5 kph faster, is pitched as the solution to all your transit woes, expect the public to push back.

 

[nfitz]

The LRTs replace a bus going 17 kph, with a long tram going 23 kph with twice the stop spacing of my local bus. You could achieve the same speed right now, by simply chopping the number of bus stops in half along major avenues.

No you can't. It's been pointed out before, that the whole starting point of Transit City was to deal with the increasing gridlock on suburban arteries, which means that buses can increasingly no longer meet schedule. If the bus isn't moving, then decreasing the number of stops won't do much.

 

[kEiThZ]

Steve is a big supporter of GO RER, just not Tory's version of it.

I don't know why you're so eager to paint Munro as someone who is against speedier services. He is a huge supporter of our GO RER plan:

....

Steve is against SmartTrack because it is a poorly thought out plan that, in its current form, will never be built

Where was Steve's criticism when Transit City was first pitched as a $6 billion plan by Miller? He was quite enthusiastic about it. If they built Transit City today as envisioned, the price tag would actually be closer to $18 billion. Will you find staunch criticism on Steve's blog against Miller about this kind of misrepresentation?

This is why I find Steve's criticism of Smart Track to be disingenuous. As a transit advocate, especially, he should know that Tory's idea on Smart Track, is no more fleshed out than Miller's Transit City proposal was. And it should get the same kind of consideration. It's an idea: to pivot towards suburban rail in the medium term. And of course, Steve, more than anyone else, should be able to grasp that there's significant overlap with Metrolinx RER and that the proposals are likely to merge.

But of course, he's extremely committed to pushing his agenda (must hurt to see it fallen so far off the radar since Miller) and so he's cute by half and says he supports RER, just not Tory's version. The real test of course is what he would say if the province came and announced that they were pushing back the DRL by another decade and using the funds to build out the RER (in essence this is what John Tory is pushing since he's committed to the Sheppard East, Finch West and Eglinton LRTs).

I genuinely respect his staunch advocacy for public transit and the incredible thoroughness of his research. There are very few in this world who could do what he does. But I do think a huge chunk of his worldview on transit usage is not just ignorant of the public's desires for pulic transit, but actually contemptuous of their wants.

Like I've said, I think we would have had half the battles, if we'd work on building the long-haul system first. Either through subway expansions (not likely because of cost) or through some kind of RER system that's integrated with the TTC. Happy to see John Tory move that along.

 

[kEiThZ]

No you can't. It's been pointed out before, that the whole starting point of Transit City was to deal with the increasing gridlock on suburban arteries, which means that buses can increasingly no longer meet schedule. If the bus isn't moving, then decreasing the number of stops won't do much.

Which brings up so many of the other benefits of Transit City which could easily be implemented right now. Give buses the same priority LRTs are getting under Transit City (with exclusive bus lanes) and with increased stop spacing, you'd get quite close to the 23 kph Transit City promises on Sheppard East.

The only real unique benefit of LRT is the operational cost savings of moving several times the number of passengers of a bus, on an LRV. All the other features of segregated LRT could easily apply to buses as well.

 

[nfitz]

Which brings up so many of the other benefits of Transit City which could easily be implemented right now. Give buses the same priority LRTs are getting under Transit City (with exclusive bus lanes) and with increased stop spacing, you'd get quite close to the 23 kph Transit City promises on Sheppard East.

You can't create exclusive bus lanes without taking away traffic lanes. TTC has (again) put in a funding request to council for increased express services. Yes, there's stuff we need to do now - but first we have to stop electing right-wingers like Tory and Ford who think the biggest problem in Toronto is gridlock - not transit.

All the other features of segregated LRT could easily apply to buses as well.

Only at the expense of a wider ROW.

 

[ehlow]

I've never said that it's LRT vs. subway. I've said it's one of priorities. What do you build first? To me, the public is screaming for faster transit first. And that's what is disappointing about the LRTs. The LRTs replace a bus going 17 kph, with a long tram going 23 kph with twice the stop spacing of my local bus. You could achieve the same speed right now, by simply chopping the number of bus stops in half along major avenues. That's not really progress.

I've pushed for subway or suburban rail expansion first, because I think this what the public wants and needs, prior to expansion of local and medium haul transit. Once that Metrolinx RER, or Smart Track, or whatever is in place, you'll find very little opposition to LRT expansion. When an LRT that will cost $1 billion (SELRT) and replaces just one bus corridor with a large tram that goes just 5 kph faster, is pitched as the solution to all your transit woes, expect the public to push back.

You always imply there was some choice between LRTs (Transit City) or GO RER.

There has never been, and there isn't some sort of choice between those two. Provincial Liberals support both GO RER & LRT. Tory and Chow both support LRT and GO RER.

It seems you always try to position it as one vs the other, when they are both planned.

 

[ehlow]

Which brings up so many of the other benefits of Transit City which could easily be implemented right now. Give buses the same priority LRTs are getting under Transit City (with exclusive bus lanes) and with increased stop spacing, you'd get quite close to the 23 kph Transit City promises on Sheppard East.

The only real unique benefit of LRT is the operational cost savings of moving several times the number of passengers of a bus, on an LRV. All the other features of segregated LRT could easily apply to buses as well.

If there was some choice between exclusive lane LRT vs BRT then we'd have something to consider. But there is no such choice before us now.

 

[kEiThZ]

You always imply there was some choice between LRTs (Transit City) or GO RER.

Most certainly there was a choice in which could go first. Powers that be chose LRT. And while I would argue that Eglinton should always have been in the first tranche of projects, I'll argue that money spent on Finch West and Sheppard East would be better spent on the RER project and/or extending Eglinton to the airport.

There has never been, and there isn't some sort of choice between those two. Provincial Liberals support both GO RER & LRT. Tory and Chow both support LRT and GO RER.

Indeed. And I don't get why the Tory-Chow dichotomy is portrayed as LRT vs RER. It's actually DRL vs. RER.