[salsa]

I'd rather have the uninformed masses claiming that they deserve SmartTrack rather than subways. That way we can avoid spending untold billions on useless holes in the ground (ahem... Sheppard)

Unless those deserving areas can only be reached with a heavy rail tunnel a la Eglinton West.

 

[ehlow]

Perhaps the beat thing about Smart Track is that it will take the discussion away from subways. Subways, at least as they are built and designed here, are really for medium distance trips. Maybe in 4 years the talk will be about "Smart Tracking" the Richmond Hill or Barrie GO lines rather than getting the subway up to Highway 7.

Yes "SmartTracks" or "regional express rail" are much more reasonable for longer distance trips both in speed and cost than subways.

There is the thing where GO RER can be difficult to explain to people where as when you say "subway", it's one word that conveys a lot about service level with trains every few minutes in both directions etc.

 

[ehlow]

Unless those deserving areas can only be reached with a heavy rail tunnel a la Eglinton West.

Are we already sure that elevating is not an option? There's still a 4.5 meter strip reserved for future transit.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

My point was that SmartTrack won't get to Renforth in the short-term, so will never meet the Transitway.

I offered up the Milton spur as what the current long-term plan is. I suppose there are other long-term ways to get heavy rail to MCC. Though the Mount-Dennis-Eglinton-Renforth route is about 4 km - over 20% further from The Junction than using the Milton spur.

Are we already sure that elevating is not an option? There's still a 4.5 meter strip reserved for future transit.

That 4.5 m strip has been sold to developers. Do you expect to build over these properties?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes "SmartTracks" or "regional express rail" are much more reasonable for longer distance trips both in speed and cost than subways.

There is the thing where GO RER can be difficult to explain to people where as when you say "subway", it's one word that conveys a lot about service level with trains every few minutes in both directions etc.

What's so hard for people to understand about rapid transit services that have headways of 15 minutes or less and stations about every 2000m? There's no need to call these things subways.

 

[ehlow]

That 4.5 m strip has been sold to developers. Do you expect to build over these properties?

No.. there is 4.5 m strip that the developers have specifically left for a future LRT.

I know that there are developments on the Richview Corridor .

 

[salsa]

Are we already sure that elevating is not an option? There's still a 4.5 meter strip reserved for future transit.

I'm thinking further down the road, like: "The people of Willowdale deserve surface subways, subways, subways." Someone will have to pander for their votes by promising a tunnelled spur, and voila. But I'm just kidding around of course.

 

[ehlow]

What's so hard for people to understand about rapid transit services that have headways of 15 minutes or less and stations about every 2000m? There's no need to call these things subways.

It's just my experience with explaining the idea of GO RER to people who know nothing about transit, that it usually takes at least a minute, possibly a few minutes, vs. the word "subway" which is immediately understood. Maybe you're a more concise communicator. I usually talk about 15 min each way all day, then electrification. It just takes longer than saying the word that everyone understands.

Just like explaining "underground LRT" on Eglinton, sometimes I get lazy and just say "subway", since I don't want to get into a conversation on how the trains are narrower etc.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No.. there is 4.5 m strip that the developers have specifically left for a future LRT.

I know that there are developments on the Richview Corridor .

Ahh yes good point. you're too good to forget something like that. I don't see why that couldn't be used for elevated transit.

 

[salsa]

Considering Bonnie Crombie campaigned on connecting a future LRT line to Smart Track, I would say there is desire for Smart Track in Mississauga. Same goes for Tory winning in Toronto. It was the central plank in his platform. The only thing Tory needs to get over is the lies that were spread about Smart Track during the campaign, such as ripping up car lanes and demolishing houses. Oh, and the fact that 7km of tunnel is needed.

Tory will also need to get over some of his own lies, such as 7 not 17 years, TIF, SmartTrack is a viable substitute for the DRL, or that ridership will be 200K per day. Btw, 7 km of tunnel is not a number that was pulled out of thin air. In fact the Globe and Mail estimated that at least 8.5 km of tunnel would be needed, all the way to Martin Grove. Tory of course denied this without offering his own estimate, while also saying that his unknown tunnel length has been budgeted, under the same budget that previously assumed that no tunnelling was necessary.

 

[BurlOak]

No.. there is 4.5 m strip that the developers have specifically left for a future LRT.

I know that there are developments on the Richview Corridor .

You can either elevate over the south side of the road (maybe tough between Islington and Kipling), or you can widen Eglinton on the south side by 4m, and then take 4m away from the north side for the elevated line, or you can have the piers in the 4.5m strip, but with tracks partially cantilevered over the traffic lanes. I am quite sure the 4.5m strip is the continuous ROW, but it would be wider at intersections were the stations would be.

 

[ssiguy2]

I think Smart Track will actually see construction begin sooner rather than later.

Remember, all of it will be using current rail corridors {and I do mean all because I think the Eglinton portion is dead and he will take over the UPX corridor but couldn't start a fight with Metrolinx in the middle of a campaign} and that means no endless environmental reviews {and probably none at all}, no NIMBYs to face down in court, and no big land acquisitions. It is these things that slow everything down in Toronto transit and by the time they are all sorted out in 5 years there will be a new mayor, new government at Queen's Park and Ottawa and hence different priorities.

The reality is that the entire western portion of the system is already built, it's called the UPX. Wynne and Murray have never struck me as being very supportive of the line, it was very much McGuinty's baby. All that is required is more trains, more stations, and electrification and voila......the entire western portion of Smart Tracks is done.

This displays yet another benefit of Smart Tracks which a DRL or TransitCity lines didn't offer.........it can be phased in due to using current corridors. Electrication can be added along with more station, and higher frequencies but it doesn't have to wait years before the beginning of the system begins. LRT and subways are basically an all or nothing deal, you put the shovels in the ground and wait 10 years praying that no one will cancel it.

Not only does this mean something tangible to the long suffering transit users but also is easier to get funding for from senior levels of government. It's one thing to have MPs and MPPs at a shovel turning ceremony and quite another to have them at ribbon cuttings. These are politicians and they want all the good press they can get and they want it BEFORE the next election not a decade from now when their government is out of office and they may no longer be in office themselves. Having a line that can be built quickly means they see a real political benefit of handing over cash.

This concept is especially true with lines that can be phased in. Being at one ribbon cutting is nice but will easily be forgotten but being at several in a few years really means something to them. Every time a new station is opened or service is expanded is a ribbon cutting as is the inauguration of a newly received fleet. Politicians will be more than happy to be at the "turning on" ceremony at the electrification of the each and every line.

This is life in the REAL world. Politicians may agree with the project, support it, even advocate for it but at the end of the day they want to see their financial support show up as political support at the next election. A system that is half built and can be phased in offers those political brownie points that all politicians long for.

 

[nfitz]

Ahh yes good point. you're too good to forget something like that. I don't see why that couldn't be used for elevated transit.

There's no reason you can't elevate Eglinton - technically. But why would you? Ridership is a fraction of what it is on Eglinton East between Don Mills Road and Kennedy. And if you elevate, suddenly you need stations instead of just concrete - and elevators, escalators, etc., etc.

I'd stay stick it to the surface. With the stop and road spacing out there, it's still going to be a fast ride. If, say, 50 years from now you have 10,000 people an hour, instead of the 2,000 max they current expect (and much lower west of Royal York), then you've got the option of elevating.

 

[BurlOak]

There's no reason you can't elevate Eglinton - technically. But why would you? Ridership is a fraction of what it is on Eglinton East between Don Mills Road and Kennedy. And if you elevate, suddenly you need stations instead of just concrete - and elevators, escalators, etc., etc.

One reason to elevate is to save money. If the desire is to have fast access to the airport corporate centre, then there are two option.

1. Spend $600M extra (I haven't put much thought into this estimate yet) to elevate Eglinton West and have SmartTrack continue to Brampton, or
2. Spend $2B to have SmartTrack make the curve onto Eglinton.

We need to stop choosing the (apparent) less expensive solution that actually winds up costing more.

 

[ehlow]

There's no reason you can't elevate Eglinton - technically. But why would you? Ridership is a fraction of what it is on Eglinton East between Don Mills Road and Kennedy. And if you elevate, suddenly you need stations instead of just concrete - and elevators, escalators, etc., etc.

I'd stay stick it to the surface. With the stop and road spacing out there, it's still going to be a fast ride. If, say, 50 years from now you have 10,000 people an hour, instead of the 2,000 max they current expect (and much lower west of Royal York), then you've got the option of elevating.

Well at least, if the campaign SmartTrack map is used, there would only be 3 elevated stations. Bwahaahahha...

Anyways. I'm obviously fine with extending Eglinton LRT west and have SmartTrack end at Mt Dennis or further north, I'm just considering the possibilities if they do want to have it go on Eg West.