[nfitz]

One reason to elevate is to save money.

Elevating is much more expensive than running on the surface. And not justifed with only about 2,000 or so riders ... far less further west.

We need to stop choosing the (apparent) less expensive solution that actually winds up costing more.

How would surface LRT cost more? That doesn't make sense. It doesn't preclude elevating in 40 to 100 years if the demand is there.

Well at least, if the campaign SmartTrack map is used, there would only be 3 elevated stations. Bwahaahahha...

LOL! Yeah, one in York, one in Etobicoke, and one in Mississauga. What a bizarre plan ... how does anyone think this is better than simply extending the Eglinton line, and instead taking the RER to Weston, Etobicoke North, Rexdale, and Bramalea?

 

[WislaHD]

Can we take a moment and analyze how the UPX can be converted to SmartTrack?

I'm hardly the resident transit engineer expert on here but doesn't using the UPX corridor come with its own difficulties?

 

[BurlOak]

Elevating is much more expensive than running on the surface. And not justifed with only about 2,000 or so riders ... far less further west.

How would surface LRT cost more? That doesn't make sense. It doesn't preclude elevating in 40 to 100 years if the demand is there.

Very conservatively, elevated transit costs $$130M to 150M/km. It is 9km to continue from Weston to Commerce Blvd. This is a cost of $1.25B. On-street LRT cost $50 to $80M/km meaning this portion would cost $600M. The extra cost to elevate would be about $600M - I stand by my original number.

The thing to realize is that elevated is not being compared to on-street alone. It is compared to on-street LRT along with all its implications. And one of those implications is that on-street LRT is so opposed that it leads to other proposals to eliminate the short comings of being on-street. In this case, the implication is SmartTrack, along with the underground curve and buried section to get through much of the Richview corridor.

It is obvious that an elevated LRT through Etobicoke is about $1B less expensive than the solution that will be implemented if people continue to push the on-street LRT.

The same story as in the East. pushing on-street LRT (the implications being the B-D subway extension) results in an extra $1B being spent rather than just elevating the line.

 

[ssiguy2]

Can we take a moment and analyze how the UPX can be converted to SmartTrack?

I'm hardly the resident transit engineer expert on here but doesn't using the UPX corridor come with its own difficulties?

Very few.

Yes they would have to build more stations, electrify the line, buy more trains, and eventually complete grade separation and not sharing of actual tracks with GO but again those are things that can be phased in over time.

The UPX is EXACTLY what Smart Tracks is...............suburban rail. It will run every 15 minutes, use current corridors, have separate platforms from GO, and will use EMU vehicle. They Smart Tracks program will be completely available to the entire Western portion of the city in less than a year. The only difference is that Smart Track will be a TTC run service for mass transit and the UPX is a luxury liner for Bay Street and tourists.

Smart Tracks is just another name for S-Bahn, RER, or Melbourne and Sydney's suburban rail network. As soon as the Pan Am Games are over and the UPX ridership drops from huge to pathetic in less than a month, the cries will begin to make it part of Smart tracks. This is, unlike regular GO service, a non-subsidized service and if the Auditor General is right {and god knows it's better to trust him than Metrolinx} this line will have to charge in the upper $20 range to break even. If it doesn't break even Metrolinx would face a massive revolt if regular GO subsidies have to start flowing to a line that Metrolinx admits is for the Bay Street crowd.

Wynne and Murray have never struck me as being supportive of this line and I don't think Tory is either. This is just too easy a target for Tory and Queen's Park to pass up as transferring over to Smart Tracks would get both parties huge political wins and costing them little. No one, including Metrolinx, will come to the defense of the UPX. Imagine both Tory and Wynne being there on opening day with ribbon cutters in hand opening the first segment of Smart Tracks before the next civic or provincial election...they won't be passing that opportunity by.

After the games, the UPX is toast and will become part of the standard TTC system which is what it should have been from the start.

 

[nfitz]

Very conservatively, elevated transit costs $$130M to 150M/km. It is 9km to continue from Weston to Commerce Blvd. This is a cost of $1.25B. On-street LRT cost $50 to $80M/km meaning this portion would cost $600M. The extra cost to elevate would be about $600M - I stand by my original number.

Even if you numbers are correct (and you don't seem to have included the future cost of the additional operating cost and maintenance), then surely then LRT is less than elevated. And yet you seem to claim otherwise.

 

[Tuscani01]

That 4.5 m strip has been sold to developers. Do you expect to build over these properties?

No it hasn't. Go look at BuildTO's property map. 3 portions out of 4 that were put up for sale have not been sold yet. Drop the 3 properties from BuildTO's portfolio and you have prevented the need to tunnel along the entire Richview corridor.

 

[canarob]

If the western section does end up being that easy, it gives me hope for the Stouffville/LSE section.

 

[WislaHD]

If the western section does end up being that easy, it gives me hope for the Stouffville/LSE section.

Yes, I hope that the Eglinton West portion of SmartTrack is converted into political willpower to build the Western leg of the Crosstown too.

 

[nfitz]

No it hasn't. Go look at BuildTO's property map. 3 portions out of 4 that were put up for sale have not been sold yet. Drop the 3 properties from BuildTO's portfolio and you have prevented the need to tunnel along the entire Richview corridor.

As pointed out, none of the 4.5 ms strip is to be sold. Your looking at the much wider strip of land for the Richview Expressway.

I can't imagine they are going to reverse direction on selling that other land either. That was an almost unanimous vote by council back in 2011, lead by Mayor Ford. My money is that Tory backs down on building heavy rail along Eglinton once he gets his head around the very low ridership estimates.

 

[robmausser]

Unless those deserving areas can only be reached with a heavy rail tunnel a la Eglinton West.

That deserving area already has a fully planned, LRT extension that would make a whole lot more sense.

http://yongeandegcondos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/eglinton_lrt_route_diagram11.jpg (see phase 2)

 

[kEiThZ]

My one issue with Eglinton is that it does nothing for South Scarborough. Wish they hadn't split the SMLRT off as a separate line. And now that the SRT replacement is a subway extension, I don't see why they can't save money at Kennedy by keeping Eglinton on the street and then continuing it till Kingston, or even Kingston and Morningside (cost dependant). A short extension connects Eglinton and Guildwood GO stations and provides great service to south Scarborough. Certainly better than terminating at Kennedy.

And if they go with the LRT instead of subway, I'd love to see them branch this service.

I'm not sure that Malvern needs an LRT coming up all of Morningside. But UTS could certainly use a connection. So could south Scarborough. They could certainly build this in stages as financing permits. First to Kingston/Eglinton, then UTS, then Sheppard and maybe to Malvern Town Centre if still warranted.

 

[nfitz]

That deserving area already has a fully planned, LRT extension that would make a whole lot more sense.

Oh look, that has 12 stops in Toronto west of Mount Dennis (starting with Jane) compared to only 2 for SmartTrack.

 

[ehlow]

Oh look, that has 12 stops in Toronto west of Mount Dennis (starting with Jane) compared to only 2 for SmartTrack.

If you're travelling to various places to Eg West or live along there, you might prefer the higher # of stops. However, if you're travelling between Mississauga and downtown, or Mississauga and the transferring to the Eglinton Crosstown at Mt Dennis, you might prefer a faster trip with fewer stops.

But anyways, I'm sure that SmartTrack map drawn up hastily during an election doesn't really determine the stops on Eg West, if it even goes on Eg West. The initial studies that haven't been started would probably recommend where the stops are etc.

 

[salsa]

Yes, I hope that the Eglinton West portion of SmartTrack is converted into political willpower to build the Western leg of the Crosstown too.

Hopefully Tory will quickly backtrack on the SmartTrack at Eglinton West, and we get an Eglinton crosstown LRT extension as a compromise.

 

[BurlOak]

Oh look, that has 12 stops in Toronto west of Mount Dennis (starting with Jane) compared to only 2 for SmartTrack.

The bus has 16 to 20 stops beyond Weston - it is superior to LRT?