[rbt]

Any projection to support that?

No, quite the opposite in fact. Studies (GTA Model 3 based IIRC) on Sheppard West show most ridership heading toward Yonge in the morning rather than the other way around. Since Yonge actually has plenty of capacity at Sheppard, the people left behind would be from south of Eglinton.

The only reliable way of offsetting transfers from Sheppard to Yonge would be to have some Yonge trains either skip that station or not run that far north.


Simply put, people at the north end of the city will not go out of their way in order to give someone in the south end their space. That's why it's important that the DRL have a faster travel time than Yonge; to ensure they have a benefit to freeing their current space on Yonge.

 

[MisterF]

No, quite the opposite in fact. Studies (GTA Model 3 based IIRC) on Sheppard West show most ridership heading toward Yonge in the morning rather than the other way around. Since Yonge actually has plenty of capacity at Sheppard, the people left behind would be from south of Eglinton.

The only reliable way of offsetting transfers from Sheppard to Yonge would be to have some Yonge trains either skip that station or not run that far north.


Simply put, people at the north end of the city will not go out of their way in order to give someone in the south end their space. That's why it's important that the DRL have a faster travel time than Yonge; to ensure they have a benefit to freeing their current space on Yonge.

Agreed. People skipping Sheppard-Yonge to transfer at Sheppard West would be giving themselves a longer, more time consuming trip downtown for no benefit to themselves. It would add an extra 6 km to their trip. That won't help relieve Yonge.

I don't think the DRL needs to be faster than line 1 though. It just needs to be the same speed. People don't need to be enticed to take a different line if that line is the most convenient option. People will just take whichever line works best for them. And the DRL will be the best option to a huge chunk of the city. Still though, every DRL option has fewer stations and faster trip than line 1, so I suppose it's a moot point.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Simply put, people at the north end of the city will not go out of their way in order to give someone in the south end their space. That's why it's important that the DRL have a faster travel time than Yonge; to ensure they have a benefit to freeing their current space on Yonge.

Or ensure DRL intercepts more a higher percentage of riders to the core - I would argue minor differences in speed isn't going to detract from users - but convenience, ease and reliability will make all the difference.

AoD

 

[crs1026]

The case for filling in the gap from Yonge to Downsview is not to relieve Yonge. It’s to create a more seamless cross town corridor....Crosstown^2. It would be a boon to for instance York U students. Otherwise you have Sheppard LRT to Subway to bus to Subway to Finch LRT. Not appealing today.

- Paul

 

[MisterF]

Factor in that we're planning on building a subway along a good portion of the Harbourfront Line (Relief Line West) and a relatively similar path to the Spadina line (North and south) (Again, Relief Line West), and it becomes evident that a subway is being planned for a similar length of line with a similar amount of traffic. 50K passengers for 5 km of track. It may not be a priority but it most certainly seems fair, especially with huge amounts of growth projected for both corridors.

I might be totally misinterpreting your post, but are you suggesting that the western leg of the Relief Line will have the same ridership as the Line 4 subway or Spadina streetcar??

The case for filling in the gap from Yonge to Downsview is not to relieve Yonge. It’s to create a more seamless cross town corridor....Crosstown^2.

Crosstown 3, no? The first one was on Bloor.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I might be totally misinterpreting your post, but are you suggesting that the western leg of the Relief Line will have the same ridership as the Line 4 subway or Spadina streetcar??

My apologies, wasn't clear. Of course it will have a greater ridership than 50K people per day, but that's because it's going to be significantly longer than 5km. More like 10-12 depending on where it terminates and the routing. It will also double up for the Queen Streetcar, King Streetcar, Dundas Streetcar, the college streetcar to a small extent, the bathurst streetcar, and the Dufferin bus. It will also serve as an alternative to the bloor danforth subway and university subway. If you just built a 5km subway from say, spadina to union via harbourfront, then it would have about 50K PPD as a ridership since it's so close to the university line. Transferring at spadina to go basically the same route as the university line makes no sense from a commuting perspective unless your destination is on spadina.

 

[MisterF]

My apologies, wasn't clear. Of course it will have a greater ridership than 50K people per day, but that's because it's going to be significantly longer than 5km. More like 10-12 depending on where it terminates and the routing. It will also double up for the Queen Streetcar, King Streetcar, Dundas Streetcar, the college streetcar to a small extent, the bathurst streetcar, and the Dufferin bus. It will also serve as an alternative to the bloor danforth subway and university subway. If you just built a 5km subway from say, spadina to union via harbourfront, then it would have about 50K PPD as a ridership since it's so close to the university line. Transferring at spadina to go basically the same route as the university line makes no sense from a commuting perspective unless your destination is on spadina.

Oh I see what you're saying. I still think that hypothetical line would get more than 50K. It would go through one of the most densely populated parts of the city with huge pent up demand for transit and frequent high ridership surface lines feeding it. Pretty much any subway line of that length through downtown would get more riders than the Sheppard line.

Based on the numbers in the Yonge Relief Network Study, the daily ridership of even the first phase of the Relief Line would be in the hundreds of thousands. That's several times higher than Line 4 for a similar length.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Many Ontarians will pay a steep price if Doug Ford keeps his budget promises

This article goes over the implausibly of Ford’s budget promises. This does not bode well for transit.

 

[BurlOak]

No, quite the opposite in fact. Studies (GTA Model 3 based IIRC) on Sheppard West show most ridership heading toward Yonge in the morning rather than the other way around. Since Yonge actually has plenty of capacity at Sheppard, the people left behind would be from south of Eglinton.

The only reliable way of offsetting transfers from Sheppard to Yonge would be to have some Yonge trains either skip that station or not run that far north.


Simply put, people at the north end of the city will not go out of their way in order to give someone in the south end their space. That's why it's important that the DRL have a faster travel time than Yonge; to ensure they have a benefit to freeing their current space on Yonge.

With interlining, I imagine people from Don Mills would go down Spadina instead of Yonge. Same with riders from Bathurst.

 

[sixrings]

With interlining, I imagine people from Don Mills would go down Spadina instead of Yonge. Same with riders from Bathurst.

View attachment 137902

Maybe if there was only a stop at bathurst between yonge and Sheppard west it would be fast enough to justify the longer route. With three stops there isn't a chance.

 

[sixrings]

Many Ontarians will pay a steep price if Doug Ford keeps his budget promises

This article goes over the implausibly of Ford’s budget promises. This does not bode well for transit.

Escalades are for cool people. Transit is for poor people. This is scarboroughs savior.

 

[Hopkins123]

Maybe if there was only a stop at bathurst between yonge and Sheppard west it would be fast enough to justify the longer route. With three stops there isn't a chance.

The addition of Senlac and Faywood (and Willowdale) wouldn't add that much to the travel time since they'd be spaced a kilometre apart regardless. Acceleration/deceleration time of trains is like 20 seconds. At worst Yonge to SheppardWest Stn would match the existing Sheppard Line's run time of merely 8 minutes from Yonge to Don Mills. So 16 minutes end to end roughly.

 

[sixrings]

The addition of Senlac and Faywood (and Willowdale) wouldn't add that much to the travel time since they'd be spaced a kilometre apart regardless. Acceleration/deceleration time of trains is like 20 seconds. At worst Yonge to SheppardWest Stn would match the existing Sheppard Line's run time of merely 8 minutes from Yonge to Don Mills. So 16 minutes end to end roughly.

That's a lot of extra time when seats are available on yonge that far north. I think you guys are being super optimistic in your calculations of how many people would use this just to justify the line. And I actually would like to see the subway extended both west to Sheppard west and east to Victoria Park. But I'm not about to lie to myself about how many people would use this

 

[BurlOak]

Maybe if there was only a stop at bathurst between yonge and Sheppard west it would be fast enough to justify the longer route. With three stops there isn't a chance.

It appears Sheppard to Union is 28 minutes and add 5 minutes to transfer = 33 minutes.
Sheppard West to Union is 30 minutes, add in 8 minutes (@30 km/h) from Y-S to Dufferin = 38 minutes.

Thus, the trade off is 5 minutes versus a guaranteed seat. I can see many choosing the seat.

 

[sixrings]

What if the persons stop is at king,queen,or dundas. All of a sudden your trip went up 1-3mins while the yonge alternative went down 1-3mins.