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Yeah sure, I can see that as neoliberalism. Well, sue me. I don't consider that left.

You *literally* just equivocated neoliberalism as leftism, get caught and called on it and then come back with a "sue me" defense when you are sprinkling claims of how the media is biased towards "the left" in the same vein? Labels matter, and when you aren't even attempting to use them with some level of care, claims of biases are difficult to take seriously.

AoD
 
You *literally* just equivocated neoliberalism as leftism, get caught and called on it and then come back with a "sue me" defense? Please.

AoD

And I just explained what I mean in the post above. If you don't have a response, we can get back to transit.
 
This is truly ignorant. I am living in the US temporarily since late 2016 on exchange. Let me tell you the best news service are the public outlets (NPR and PBS Newshour). CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, have all kinds of bias to outright propaganda.

This is what private ownership of media does:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...as-local-news-anchors-recite-script-in-unison

If you want to talk about propaganda, let's look at the feedback loop between Donald Trump and Fox News:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fox-news-coordinated-white-house-false-story-lawsuit-says

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/16/media/fox-news-campaign-against-fbi-robert-mueller/index.html

Sorry. But not having an independent public broadcaster which covers the news is the mark of a backwards nation to me. The best news sources are virtually all public broadcasters. BBC. FR24. Deutsche Welle. ABC (Australia). And the CBC. In fact, I sometimes get better news and analysis about US issues from the CBC than I do from American media.

Some other examples:

Deadspin video shows Sinclair stations echoing Trump-style media attacks


Kushner: We struck deal with Sinclair for straighter coverage


The 'right wing' actually has far more influence over the news than people realize - which speaks to your point about public broadcasters generally offering the best quality of news.
 
Yeah sure, I can see that as neoliberalism. Well, sue me. I don't consider that left. To wrap this up, there's some creeping leftism in the mainstream media that I am not liking, despite the corporate ownership. Hence why I mentioned neoliberalism - social liberalism and fiscal conservatism (represented by corporate ownership). Which is funny because I am left on most issues, but I don't like the way some of today's louder/more hysterical voices that the press seems to latch on to (same applies to the right). So I am left, but I don't like the way some of the left discuss the issues. And I don't think the right is some awful monster as the more vocal on the left (and some on this forum I would say) paint the right to be. And there are some things on the right that I don't like. I am not a fan of social conservatism and I was happy when Brown cracked down on that (although stifling dissent is probably not a viable long term strategy). In some sense, I don't really have a party at the moment.

You *literally* just equivocated neoliberalism as leftism, get caught and called on it and then come back with a "sue me" defense when you are sprinkling claims of how the media is biased towards "the left" in the same vein? Labels matter, and when you aren't even attempting to use them with some level of care, claims of biases are difficult to take seriously.

AoD

Pretty much. I'm not gonna keep debating this point (mostly because you and Northern Light posted most of what I wanted to say anyway) but I'd add that if someone can't recognize that your opinions are so far to one side of the spectrum over the other that the centre doesn't look like the centre, you're an ideologue and incapable of a remotely neutral judgement. And I say this as someone who won't dispute friends who call the NDP a rightist social democratic formation and dismiss the other parties as just rightist capitalist parties. I don't think they're analysis is wrong (insofar as it is clearly a reflection of their opinion and a certain hard left critique that is perfectly reasonable from that perspective) but the reality is that the existing political system places the Liberal Party at the centre and they absolutely do sit within the centre of existing politics. The NDP sit to the centre, centre-left (despite what people think, the party has absolutely taken a rightward shift since the Layton years - the Feds especially but Horwath is no socialist either) and the PCs sit centre-right, with a cohort of social conservative rightists holding some amount of power at the moment (judging by Ford's election and pandering to them). If you can't recognize that and debate on those lines, you're just wasting everyone's time. If you want to debate how leftists are taking over the world and media, stick to your echo chamber.
 
Pretty much. I'm not gonna keep debating this point (mostly because you and Northern Light posted most of what I wanted to say anyway) but I'd add that if someone can't recognize that your opinions are so far to one side of the spectrum over the other that the centre doesn't look like the centre, you're an ideologue and incapable of a remotely neutral judgement. And I say this as someone who won't dispute friends who call the NDP a rightist social democratic formation and dismiss the other parties as just rightist capitalist parties. I don't think they're analysis is wrong (insofar as it is clearly a reflection of their opinion and a certain hard left critique that is perfectly reasonable from that perspective) but the reality is that the existing political system places the Liberal Party at the centre and they absolutely do sit within the centre of existing politics. The NDP sit to the centre, centre-left (despite what people think, the party has absolutely taken a rightward shift since the Layton years - the Feds especially but Horwath is no socialist either) and the PCs sit centre-right, with a cohort of social conservative rightists holding some amount of power at the moment (judging by Ford's election and pandering to them). If you can't recognize that and debate on those lines, you're just wasting everyone's time. If you want to debate how leftists are taking over the world and media, stick to your echo chamber.

And oddly enough I am left on most issues. Guess you didn't read my post on this page. We can return to transit, thanks. If we're talking about echo chambers, you can see this forum as a left echo chamber, so perhaps you're being confronted.
 
“We support anything that makes life more affordable,” the PC party said, when asked if a Ford government would commit to the $3 GO Transit fares.
http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/3-go-transit-fares-riding-on-election#comments

lol...an echo in a room has more audible integrity as being 'first person' than Ford Pickup. Here's a concept for the Cons: Pledge to match it, stop being so fugging slippery.

What's interesting is that even the Sun reports that Ford hasn't an ally in Ontario save for the Ford Farelights:
But Green Party Leader Mike Schreiner said in a statement that Ford’s “ire” with bike lanes, streetcar projects and light-rail transit expansion is well known.

“With Doug Ford at the helm, it’s questionable whether public transit would even be on the radar. His history suggests he cares more about moving votes than moving people,” Schreiner said.

Toronto Mayor John Tory welcomed the GO Transit fare reduction, saying it will increase the affordability of transit and help ease congestion on busy city routes by encouraging TTC riders to opt for the equally-priced GO.

“We know that very few people are going to take transit if it costs more than getting in their car,” Tory said. “That is a reality.”
 
^ The $3 fare ought to be objected to by the more ‘right’ side of the spectrum, on the grounds that it is not making transit more ‘liveable’. Someone will be taxed more heavily to accomplish it.

I am amazed how much of the current election platforms of the Liberals and NDP amount to income redistribution. Free drugs are not free, nor is free dental service, nor is free daycare. These are paid from tax revenue. Somebody pays, and likely not the recipient of those services.

Even Doug Ford is not prepared to build his platform around letting the affluent keep their money, although quietly he may work for that. Not very courageous or forthright for a ‘righty’.

As I alluded to in another thread, I turn 64 this year and so the Senior’s discount for transit is looming in sight. Frankly, in my case, I don’t feel the current transit fare structure is a bite in my pocket book. (My spouse and I have been enjoying seniors’ admission rates at movies and museums for close to a decade .... because to the average 18-year-old ticket taker, we boomers all look prehistoric, and nobody has the nerve to card a grumpy old customer). I’m not living at the high end, but even with a modest government pension and CPP neither am I faced with a choice between filling my Presto card and eating catfood for dinner, as the pols make it sound.

That $3 GO ride will be a $2 ride when I reach 65. Somewhere, somebody must be planning a clawback or means test. I have been saying for years that the millenials will eventually figure out how to tax the boomers to the hilt. (My millenial kids say that regularly, with harsh tones in their voices). Anyways, my point is, this is a very left leaning election on all fronts, much more than we admit. At least the Libs and NDP admit it. If the ‘right’ does rally behind Ford, they stand to be the most disappointed when he tries to play both sides of the street.

- Paul
 
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Even Doug Ford is not prepared to build his platform around letting the affluent keep their money, although quietly he may work for that. Not very courageous or forthright for a ‘righty’.
- Paul

He is a populist above all. Promising subways everywhere isn't exactly fiscally prudent either, but there we are.

AoD
 
I am amazed how much of the current election platforms of the Liberals and NDP amount to income redistribution. Free drugs are not free, nor is free dental service, nor is free daycare. These are paid from tax revenue. Somebody pays, and likely not the recipient of those services.
Except how "Left Leaning" is it when it actually *saves* money when overall costs at looked at?

Quite a number of 'rightist' European nations with a higher standard of living than we have, and higher average income, let alone greater GDP per Capita, believe investment in 'the common good' pays off handsomely over the longer term. How 'conservative' is that? Child care, dental care, subsidized transit systems, drugs, you name it. Nations like Austria, Germany and others have provided such for generations. And when their politics move even further to the 'right', those social programs are left intact, albeit with economies affected to make delivery more efficient.

As you have stated many times yourself, GO Transit saves the costs of building more highways. Is that a 'move to the Left'? Or just "common sense", the phrase being applied in a non-jingoistic manner?
 
Except how "Left Leaning" is it when it actually *saves* money when overall costs at looked at?

Quite a number of 'rightist' European nations with a higher standard of living than we have, and higher average income, let alone greater GDP per Capita, believe investment in 'the common good' pays off handsomely over the longer term. How 'conservative' is that? Child care, dental care, subsidized transit systems, drugs, you name it. Nations like Austria, Germany and others have provided such for generations. And when their politics move even further to the 'right', those social programs are left intact, albeit with economies affected to make delivery more efficient.

As you have stated many times yourself, GO Transit saves the costs of building more highways. Is that a 'move to the Left'? Or just "common sense", the phrase being applied in a non-jingoistic manner?

Well, we are kind of on the same wavelength. Maybe I’m not saying it well.

I don’t see Ontario as being right-leaning at all. While we bristle at too direct an accusation of privilege or discrimination, we realise that our society is not ‘equal’ by any means and all parties are addressing that in some way at some pace or another. Ford’s populism buys into that implicitly, which differentiates him from a true ‘righty’. The nations you cite aren’t rightist at all, they just have built productive economies that generate lots of wealth, and they agree government will redistribute that wealth.

‘Right’ implies acceptance of current inequalities as just differences based on merit or hard work or correct working of a system that government refrains from intervening in. ‘Left’ implies government intervening to adjust a system that isn’t able to work justly on its own., or to accelerate social change faster than the sysrem is able to.

Why anyone is promising benefits to seniors without adding rigourous means testing is what I don’t get. There are some seniors living in poverty, yes - but it’s not a universal, in fact it’s stepping around the huge number who are able to pay.

My theory is that right now the (well disguised) agenda is addressing intergenerational economic disparity. The biggest benefits in the current platform address millenial-boomer disparity. They arguably help gender and racial inequality also, but generational benefit swamps that. We are doing this without drawing attention to the issue - it’s politics, after all. In Canada we don’t point fingers at privilege, ever when it exists...we are too polite for that. Unlike the US where it’s clear that older white guys have the most, and are determined to hang onto it, and say so.

None of our platforms are being positioned as ‘better use of money’. I really doubt that public-funded daycare will be more effective than what exists today. It will simply remove a hardship to young parents (I do think the hardship exists, btw). Similarly, cheaper fares does not improve transit effectiveness. It is being positioned as removing a hardship from the less affluent who are already using transit. I agree it may grow ridership, but we still ought to be declaring who we are taking the money from to fund the subsidy.

In those other countries, that social contract is more explicit. We need to fess up.

- Paul
 
social contract
That's the key! Must rush out on business, but will continue on how that can be applied (or not) in a linear fashion due to the difference of 'societal factors' of European nations to Ontario. There's a disconnect along ethnic and language lines, as the UK is a clear exception to European norms, as are all Anglo nations. Oddly, where this really displays itself is in littering! In the Germanic nations, (and others) littering is....well...*verboten*!

Even provinces vary widely. Very worthy of more discussion later.
 
CBC has Eric Grenier's poll tracker up for the Ontario Election.

This is a poll aggregator which also weights polls based on sample size, recent-ness, and past accuracy of the pollster.

Often quite accurate, but much like the underlying polls sometimes very far off.

Still, interesting way to keep track of these things.


https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/onvotes/poll-tracker/

Cross posted to the general Provincial Election Discussion thread.
 
The BIG papers lean left. Relax with the obsession with corporate ownership.
Thirty years ago in other countries perhaps.

But that's blatantly untrue in the Canadian anglo media. Even in the 2015 Federal election, where it was quite clear that Tories were going down, they still endorsed the right.

Just look at the numbers:

Right - endorsing the Tories:
  • Calgary Sun
  • Calgary Herald
  • London Free Press
  • National Post
  • Montreal Gazette
  • Windsor Star
  • Ottawa Sun
  • Globe and Mail
  • the Province (BC)
  • (Saskatoon) Star-Phoenix
  • Kingston Whig-Standard
  • Regina Leader-Post
  • Toronto Sun
  • Edmonton Journal
  • Winnipeg Sun
  • Edmonton Sun
  • Ottawa Citizen
  • Vancouver Sun
  • Winnipeg Sun
  • Windsor Star - and probably more I missed.

Left - endorsing the NDP:
  • Prince Arthur Herald.

How can you claim that is leaning left?

There isn't even a centrist lean these days, with only papers I'm aware endorsing them were the Torstar group and the Charlottetown Guardian!
 
CBC has Eric Grenier's poll tracker up for the Ontario Election.

This is a poll aggregator which also weights polls based on sample size, recent-ness, and past accuracy of the pollster.

Often quite accurate, but much like the underlying polls sometimes very far off.

Still, interesting way to keep track of these things.


https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/onvotes/poll-tracker/

Cross posted to the general Provincial Election Discussion thread.
Thanks for that; much more interesting than individual polls!
 
That $3 GO ride will be a $2 ride when I reach 65. Somewhere, somebody must be planning a clawback or means test. I have been saying for years that the millenials will eventually figure out how to tax the boomers to the hilt. (My millenial kids say that regularly, with harsh tones in their voices).

By the time they take control (which taking enough interest to show up at the polls; they've had the numbers for a while) the only real tax route to slam boomers (who as a group will no longer have an working income) will be an estate or inheritance tax. That'll be bittersweet.

A 20% estate tax would take a massive chunk off government debt over a 20 year period; likely around $600B for Canada (inheritance runs around $75B/year right now; inflate by 10 years to roughly $150B/year if markets/housing doesn't tank and take 20%).
 
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