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This is very worthwhile discussion, something not really being talked about in the election. At the beginning of today's string, I wondered if people were using the term "P3" (PPP) differently than the understood Western model.

If I were a right-wing candidate wanting to take Wynne down a few notches, I would be all over this. The argument doesn't have to have absolute merit, but it would be so easy to say "Wynne is doing the same thing she did with Hydro bills". As well as "feeding money to big rich contractors without proper oversight".

The reason Douggie isn't biting is - I doubt he or his staff understand any of this. But then, neither does the electorate he is pitching to. It's so easy to make it all sound good - "we are giving all this to the private sector, because they know better and they are more disciplined with money". Which is absurd when you know the inside workings of big contracts, but it sells to the electorate. Personally, I think ML's P3 strategy is as far reaching, and as potentially risky, as the Green Energy Act was... but I'm a transit nerd. I couldn't generate much interest in the topic around the family Easter dinner table, even after several bottles of wine, when the political discussion really got going.

To use P3 or not? It really comes down to building what otherwise wouldn't get built. The question isn't 'if' but 'how'. P3 has built massive amounts of infrastructure in our closest cousins nations, Australia and the UK. And drastic mistakes have been made, mostly in the UK, but also stunning models of success and management, and valuable return to the taxpayer per investment.

It's a bit like questioning using mortgages to buy a home. Good idea or not? Considering that in 99% of cases (my estimate), mortgages are used, even by many who could outright afford to buy cash up front, the detail is in how, not if.

Well, there's the difference. Your mortgage analogy makes sense when we talk about building the infrastructure. The concept of borrowing to buy an asset that generates value is well understood. The strategy doesn't make as much sense in terms of operational cost and managerial control. Borrowing to cover expenses is different than borrowing to invest.

P3 happens all over, so I'm not arguing it lacks merit. I'm concerned with just how much decisionmaking power ML is contracting out. And, I'm very leery that the first winter when the switches start freezing, and ML deflects the blame by saying "It's the contractor's responsibility, and they are losing the performance component of their payment", we will feel we are well served - any more than we like knowing that Bombardier is paying a penalty for being late with TTC trams. We taxpayers want to know whose desk the buck stops at, so we can demand that somebody get sacked. And insist it should never have happened. The ML P3 structure is firewalled too well for that to happen.

- Paul
 
On topic. Has there been any planned transit project that Ford has pledged not to support or to flat out cancel?

So far Ford hasn't released a platform - and we know they've dumped "The People's Guarantee".

He has pledged to make the Scarborough extension three stops instead of one. He's also pledged to cut $6 billion from the budget and find 'efficiencies'.

Based on his track record at City Hall, 'finding efficiencies' is simply cutting things from the budget. Transit is a big ticket item that will lead to a large spending reduction, and is less of a priority for the suburban types he's targeting.

Until I hear otherwise, it's very safe to assume that a Ford-led government would put a halt to any major transit spending in the future.
 
Now, you could drive those costs down, by extending a government guarantee to the P3 consortium.
This arguably pertains more to the federal Infrastructure Bank, although Ontario has an equivalent. Your point is an essential one though. The catch-all is always 'risk'.

The reason Douggie isn't biting is - I doubt he or his staff understand any of this. But then, neither does the electorate he is pitching to. It's so easy to make it all sound good - "we are giving all this to the private sector, because they know better and they are more disciplined with money". Which is absurd when you know the inside workings of big contracts, but it sells to the electorate.

Personally, I think ML's P3 strategy is as far reaching, and as potentially risky, as the Green Energy Act was... but I'm a transit nerd. I couldn't generate much interest in the topic around the family Easter dinner table, even after several bottles of wine, when the political discussion really got going.

I'm concerned with just how much decisionmaking power ML is contracting out.
The common theme to the above quotes is "oversight"...or lack of.

You could lease a tractor with the intention of buying it later. It might even have an option to include a driver and maintenance, but without it, your farm is toast. Is entering a contract on it a wise decision? It all depends on the contract, of course.

Most people really don't understand the nature of how public infrastructure delivery is changing. It is lost on the electorate, yet it isn't really that difficult a concept. The bottom line is that Gov't can almost always (in well managed nations, although even Greece seems to persevere) borrow money at a preferential rate as it will always be there to pay it. And it can issue bonds guaranteed by the taxpayer.

P3 is pretty much our only *practical* choice for large infrastructure projects moving forward. It is preferable to do it with "our own money" (Pension Plans et al) so that any investment pay-off benefit is returned to our own pockets, but again, in Ontario and Canada, this principle is not discussed as widely as it should be.

I just Googled to look for UK examples that went very wrong (transportation has quite a few, the London Underground being a glaring one), and ones that have gone right, and this jumped off the page, without even leaving Canada.

Even discussing how this is 'coming in under the radar' for most, I'm taken aback at the claim being made here:
“The Canadian P3 experience is very strong,” says Mark Romoff, president and CEO of the Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships (CCPPP), a national not-for-profit organization established in 1993 to promote innovative approaches to infrastructure development and service delivery through public-private partnerships with all levels of government.

Increasingly, governments outside of Canada are recognizing Canada as “best in class when it comes to P3s,” says Romoff, also a former trade commissioner with Global Affairs Canada’s Canadian Trade Commissioner Service (TCS).

“We’re the gold standard,” he says, noting that Canadian companies looking to get involved in P3s can trade on the fact that Canada's expertise in this area is held in high regard. “Everyone in the world is looking at the Canadian model and seeing how they can adapt it to their countries, so they can enjoy similar success.”

Key characteristics of the Canadian P3 approach include the fact that the model is supported among political leaders, and it involves close collaboration between all levels of government, Romoff says. There is open competition in bidding for the projects—although the different consortia involved are short-listed to make the process manageable—and the process of choosing the winner is transparent and fair, he adds. There is also a “robust pipeline of projects.”

“Because we have such a portfolio of projects, we have developed a base of experience and an expertise that is marketable around the world,” Romoff says. “There is an opportunity to do things globally.”
[...]
http://tradecommissioner.gc.ca/canadexport/0001995.aspx?lang=eng

Errrr...that is outward investment they're discussing. And that brings in Desjardins-Siciliano's argument for funding HFR. But that then leads to Ontario's soliciting same for HSR, but 'wrapped' in completely different dialog. But as Paul mentions, (and this has increased in reference by magnitudes in the last few years) ML' as normal procedure now tenders on a P3 basis for all their latest projects.

I'm neither for nor against, I think it's inescapable to build what we need...*yesterday* let alone today, but it's the *obfuscation* in how it's being done that rankles.
 
If it were that easy they would be doing more of it already.
? IO has beeing doing massive amounts of this in Ontario for years. There's been massive infrastructure development in Ontario using this model for several years.

I'm curious to see what the Liberals are promising for transit. They seem to not care about it as much anymore.
Did you miss the 2041 Regional Transportation plan - not to mention all the $ commitments? http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/rtp/

106 projects on 56 lines

In Development
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2041
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If I were a right-wing candidate wanting to take Wynne down a few notches, I would be all over this. The argument doesn't have to have absolute merit, but it would be so easy to say "Wynne is doing the same thing she did with Hydro bills". As well as "feeding money to big rich contractors without proper oversight".
Right-wingers trying to shoot down PPP? What, and should the NDP attack the Unions to get more popular support?

"Coaltion" has a number of manifestations. Some have certainly been used since WWII.
In a coalition government (such as the Cameron government in the UK in 2010), there is more than one party in government, and some ministries are headed by an MP (or Senator) who are not of the same party as the PM or Premier. There may be different manifestations of this, but I'm not aware of any, unless you count Harper's 2006 cabinet in the 39th Parliament, with Liberal David Emerson being Minister of Industry - however, I believe Emerson sat as Conservative after that, not a Liberal.

Another manifestation would be what we saw in 1917 and 1940 where a coalition was formed before the election (winning in 1917 and losing in 1940).

However, I don't see any record of any form of coalition government in Ontario or Canada since the one elected in 1917. I don't think most consider the 1985 Peterson government in Ontario a coalition (although perhaps it comes closest) - there was an accord between the Liberals and NDP, but no actual coalition.
 
Far left?!? Good grief, they aren't even left enough to endorse the NDP. And explain their hardcore anti-David Miller stuff. If you have Star as far-left, what does that make NOW?

And Globe Left? After what, 5 federal Conservative endorsements in a row?
I'd put the Star as left as the Sun is right.
And with both Wynne and Trudeau, the Liberals have moved left of the NDP.

The endorsements were a bit funny because for 2 months all papers (Post, Globe) were telling us how bad Harper was but then their official position was to support CPC. It's like the inmates are running the asylum and periodically the voice of reason is sent down.
 
?
Did you miss the 2041 Regional Transportation plan - not to mention all the $ commitments? http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/rtp/

LOL. The 2041 transit plan is a lot of pie in the sky stuff.

The Liberals like to over-promise and then study the shit out projects. Pushing back start dates for years.

With the election looming I'm curious to see what they are promising. Currently it looks like transit will take a back seat to spending on social programs.
 
LOL. The 2041 transit plan is a lot of pie in the sky stuff.

The Liberals like to over-promise and then study the shit out projects. Pushing back start dates for years.

With the election looming I'm curious to see what they are promising. Currently it looks like transit will take a back seat to spending on social programs.
You just asked for their promises and then you reject them. Make up your mind
 
You just asked for their promises and then you reject them. Make up your mind

Those are their old promises aren't they?

Have they updated what they have prioritized since their shift in focus? What did the last budget mention?
 
Those are their old promises aren't they?

Have they updated what they have prioritized since their shift in focus? What did the last budget mention?
Why would they need to shift focus? The whole point of promises is to deliver them, not to shift from them every 4 years
 
The Conservatives seem to be terrified of telling people what they actually have planned.

Doug Ford's Ontario Conservative platform to emerge piece by piece in slow reveal: source
lol!
Instead, the party will release individual planks throughout the campaign for the June 7 election, culminating with an overview announcement of its policies, said the source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
[...]
Ford’s may be easier to campaign on, he said.

“It’s hard to mess up a five-point platform,” said Nanos. “There is a certain simplistic elegance to it in terms of a level of discipline on the message, and a lack of moving parts to criticize.”
"It’s hard to mess up a five-point platform,” I'm sure he'll find a way.
 

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