[hw621]

The Chinese way not only removes the EA, but also removes all public consultation as well.

Lol...The Chinese way also has access to nearly limitless funds...Earned or printed

 

[rbt]

Lol...The Chinese way also has access to nearly limitless funds...Earned or printed

Indeed. With an average household savings rate of 50% of post-tax income, it's pretty damn easy to sell large amounts of government bonds locally.

 

[mdrejhon]

China. My mouth agape. Both extremes.

Like massive ghost cities and even bigger boondoggles.
Or spectacular transit/rail/HSR successes.
And their rapid mistake-reversals.
Demolishing newbuild coal and building gigawatt solar farms.
Hats off to them and their accomplishments and candor on those in recent decades.

But we need a more efficient democratic way for our particular country. Masterplans ends up being collections of curated routes for the public to vote priorities for. And the population keeps wanting to have cake and eating it too.

How to improveour batting average? That becomes a political powderkeg.

 

[hw621]

Indeed. With an average household savings rate of 50% of post-tax income, it's pretty damn easy to sell large amounts of government bonds locally.

This is the past. Chinese household debt/income ratio has now surpassed that of the US. The Chinese government all levels can borrow from the banks as much as they want without covenants.

 

[MisterF]

China isn't really a great comparison because it has such a vastly different system of government and economy. There are plenty of capitalist democracies that have built extensive rail transit systems that we can learn more from.

 

[rbt]

This is the past. Chinese household debt/income ratio has now surpassed that of the US. The Chinese government all levels can borrow from the banks as much as they want without covenants.

Yeah, the under 30 crowd do love their credit cards. Hopefully the government figures out a way to break that behaviour before it harms their long-term future (cap unsecured debt at 10% of income or something).

That said, the vast majority of household debt in China is mortgages, much of which is on investment properties. The high level of debt is a direct result of having more in savings than they know what to do with. It's not necessarily a bad situation for that household despite the big debt number. If those investment properties were cashflow positive it would actually be a very good thing although I realize most are speculative.

 

[ssiguy2]

What is the point of even doing any of these master plans? Most of those plans will never be realized.

Very true and equally, if not more so, importantly is that Torontonians themselves don't believe a word of them. Torontonians no longer view these plans as goals but rather just more pretty coloured drawings that simply reinforce their beliefs that nothing will get done and that Metrolinx, the TTC, and City hall suffer from both incompetence and sterilizing inertia. The more new maps the people see, the more disenchanted they become.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Like massive ghost cities and even bigger boondoggles.

You ever followed up in those reports of ghost cities?

A lot of the time it is not so much that they are ghost cities, just not moved in yet. Now some of those "ghost cities" have millions of residents.

To me it shows that the Chinese government has the guts to master plan for growth that we are just incapable of doing.

 

[mdrejhon]

You ever followed up in those reports of ghost cities?

A lot of the time it is not so much that they are ghost cities, just not moved in yet. Now some of those "ghost cities" have millions of residents.

Correct. I've even written "China's approach is really weird to a lot of Westerners. Some of the earlier ghost cities (the ones 20 years ago) are now crowded metropolises." in a post on UrbanToronto in 2015.

 

[micheal_can]

Correct. I've even written "China's approach is really weird to a lot of Westerners. Some of the earlier ghost cities (the ones 20 years ago) are now crowded metropolises." in a post on UrbanToronto in 2015.

That is because they are moving their farmers to the cities. In an authoritarian country, you can do that.