[Tewder]

Wait, how can a multi-millionaire pay people below minimum wage? If it isn't one thing, it's another. If this is any indication of the next 4 years, fasten your seat belts, it's gonna be a bumpy ride. lol

Good god, you feel that Ford wants all gay people to die yet you're worried about minimum wage...

 

[GraphicMatt]

If there's anything worse than a homophobe it's a CHEAP homophobe.

Seriously, though, Kouvalis was the one bragging about underpaying his staff. Kouvalis is the one who seemed to be all about using fraudulent identifies during the campaign. Kouvalis is the one who last week promised that he would scrap the Tower Renewal project for... no reason at all? Spite?

Kouvalis might be the worst human being in Toronto, is what I'm saying.

 

[nfitz]

Kouvalis might be the worst human being in Toronto, is what I'm saying.

He does seem to be quite a piece of human excrement.

Does he have any redeeming qualities?

 

[adma]

I dunno. This Rob Ford election deal's striking me as akin to the most popular gas station around because gas is cheaper by a couple of pennies--and it turns out they're not only watering their gas, they're caught boasting about it out loud.

At this rate, I'm wondering if the Ford mayoralty'll even last long enough to get off the ground, before it chokes on ethical grounds...

 

[archanfel]

How is stating the fact that Ford is a lying drunken bigot a petty attack? I'm not attacking the man - there is no reason to. I was simply stating fact.

We know his is a liar - he has done so frequently. One example was when he was asked if he'd ever been charged with drunk driving, and he said that he hadn't. Later on he admitted to not only being charged, but also to being convicted.

We know he is a drunk ... the DUI previously mentioned, and the incident where he got tossed out of the ACC a couple of years ago prove that.

And we know his is a bigot, as demonstrated by his anti-gay comments. He has clearly stated that he opposed gay marriage. Anyone who speaks out against gay marriage is a bigot.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to twist this into immigration; I'm not raising that issue, and I'm not raising his habit of making ethnic stereotypes.

You misunderstood me. You were attacking me by implying I took money from Ford. That's petty and you know it.

I am not twisting this into immigration. The very first post of this thread is about immigrants voting for Ford and I am telling you why that is happening. You didn't want to listen before the election and I thought the defeat might have changed your mind. I was apparently wrong.

Calling Ford names (however valid those may be) does not solve anything. Ford won, so the people of Toronto including the immigrants apparently liked this "lying drunken bigot". Now it's the time for the losing side to think about what happened. How did a "lying drunken bigot" assisted by "human excrement" beat the last best hope of "progressive" Toronto? If you can't even figure out that the people of Toronto don't like overpaid campaign workers, I am not sure what you have learned from this crashing defeat.

 

[nfitz]

You misunderstood me. You were attacking me by implying I took money from Ford.

I didn't imply that. I asked. And I'm most interested you never actually answered the question!

 

[archanfel]

I didn't imply that. I asked. And I'm most interested you never actually answered the question!

Sigh, do you really think it warrant an answer? Do you really think Rob Ford would waste money on this forum?

If you have to have an answer, then here it is: No, Rob Ford is not paying me. Nor did he pay the 47% of the voters who voted for him. He is not that rich. Satisfied?

 

[GraphicMatt]

Calling Ford names (however valid those may be) does not solve anything. Ford won, so the people of Toronto including the immigrants apparently liked this "lying drunken bigot". Now it's the time for the losing side to think about what happened. How did a "lying drunken bigot" assisted by "human excrement" beat the last best hope of "progressive" Toronto? If you can't even figure out that the people of Toronto don't like overpaid campaign workers, I am not sure what you have learned from this crashing defeat.

The nfitz-says-he's-a-bigot show is a plodding argument, but you're going off the rails here in your response to it. Ford didn't beat the 'last best hope of poressive Toronto.' He didn't even beat a progressive candidate.

The people of Toronto had no idea what Ford's team was paying their campaign workers during the election. There's a reason Kouvalis waited until after voting day to start bragging about his tactics - it's because they make him look like an insufferable douche.

 

[tkip]

How is stating the fact that Ford is a lying drunken bigot a petty attack? I'm not attacking the man - there is no reason to. I was simply stating fact.

We know his is a liar - he has done so frequently. One example was when he was asked if he'd ever been charged with drunk driving, and he said that he hadn't. Later on he admitted to not only being charged, but also to being convicted.

We know he is a drunk ... the DUI previously mentioned, and the incident where he got tossed out of the ACC a couple of years ago prove that.

And we know his is a bigot, as demonstrated by his anti-gay comments. He has clearly stated that he opposed gay marriage. Anyone who speaks out against gay marriage is a bigot.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to twist this into immigration; I'm not raising that issue, and I'm not raising his habit of making ethnic stereotypes.

Good god man.

Your hatred for Ford and others that supported him and also towards those that don't share your superior progressive values have just become irrational rants. One DUI charge that was apparently later dropped doesn't make him a raging drunk. And if Ford is a liar, what of the many other councillors that have lied including Miller? You don't turn this same intense scrunity towards them for some strange reason.

And what about Smitherman's very colour past?

Or that while as a cabinet minister, he was well known for being verbal abusive on a regular basis. No secret here. Not one peep from you and others at this forum though about how Smitherman has a well documented history of being verbally abusive while in cabinet, having a out of control drug addiction problem in his past and himself lying to the public and obviously corrupt while in office.

Yet while you and others quietly ignore this, you contiinue to paint Ford as some raged filled red neck type that hates everyone in the city. The real issue here is that your people lost the election and you can't stand this reality. You're coming across as being a bitter, bitter sore loser.

Thus, Ford and everyone connected with his win are evil and misguided invivdiuals because it's the only thing in your mind that can possibly explain the end results. As opposed to actually understanding and accepting that enough people in this city, finally fed up with what's been going on at city hall cast their votes and overwhelmingly voted Ford in to try and fix things.

This was a democracy and Ford won and now his job and that of the rest of council is make this city work. That means working together. And this means certain councillors, still bitter about the results and licking their wounds, need to put their egos aside and work with the mayor. Not making comments about refusing to work with him on the basis they just don't like the man.

And if in your mind anyone who believes in the traditional definition of marriage as being between a man and woman ( which includes Ford, myself, most of my friends and co-workers and society) are evil bigots.... Then that says more about your mentality and refusal to accept that others have and are entitled to having a different opinion. Simply believing in the concept of marriage between men and women doesn't make people a bigot.

It simply means that people believe that marriage is defined as being between a man and woman.

It's not actually about hating gays despite what others would have us believe. People are pissed because a smaller group want to socially re-engineer the family unit despite the success of having a father and mother at the core families. Human societies everywhere adopted this strategy and it worked. Then recently, someone just decided that fathers and mothers are no longer important and necessary to children and their upbringing.

That's my view and opinion on this matter and I'm entitled to it. Doesn't make me a bigot. I just think that having a father and mother involved with child rearing is the model that makes the most sense.

Despite stating that Ford and others are screaming iintolerants, you have demonstrated again and again that you yourself are equally if not more intolerant. By launching personal attacks towards others with different views, opinions and beliefs, you make a mockery of the concpet of open tolerance towards diversity. You proclaim to believe in diversity but the reality is that it's YOUR beliefs that should count and not anything that's contrary to this.

A big problem with too many on the left.

 

[archanfel]

The nfitz-says-he's-a-bigot show is a plodding argument, but you're going off the rails here in your response to it. Ford didn't beat the 'last best hope of poressive Toronto.' He didn't even beat a progressive candidate.

The people of Toronto had no idea what Ford's team was paying their campaign workers during the election. There's a reason Kouvalis waited until after voting day to start bragging about his tactics - it's because they make him look like an insufferable douche.

Didn't he beat Joe Pantalone? Wasn't he progressive? If Toronto can't even field a progressive candidate, then that's even a bigger tragedy.

Do you honestly think that now the people know that Kouvalis didn't pay their campaign workers a lot, they would like to change their votes? I doubt it.

My point is that Ford is the mayor now, for better or for worse. You can call him whatever names, it wouldn't matter. The question is why did he win. Was it because that's the usual swing of vote mood? Possibly. However, I'd say the progressive candidates clearly underestimated Ford and voter anger. They especially misjudged immigrants who is probably the fastest growing voting block. If you don't learn from this, then the next progressive candidate might make the same mistake.

 

[Tewder]

And if in your mind anyone who believes in the traditional definition of marriage as being between a man and woman ( which includes Ford, myself, most of my friends and co-workers and society) are evil bigots.... Then that says more about your mentality and refusal to accept that other have and are entitled to having a different opinion. Simply believing in the concept of marriage between men and women doesn't make people a bigot.

Agreed. People are entitled to their beliefs and can live their personal lives accordingly... as long as they accept that their beliefs do not trump the rights of others or the right of others to live their personal lives in the same way. If so, they are not discriminating and they are not bigots. Live and let live, in other words. Those of us who are devout atheists have been doing it for years.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Didn't he beat Joe Pantalone? Wasn't he progressive? If Toronto can't even field a progressive candidate, then that's even a bigger tragedy.

Do you honestly think that now the people know that Kouvalis didn't pay their campaign workers a lot, they would like to change their votes? I doubt it.

My point is that Ford is the mayor now, for better or for worse. You can call him whatever names, it wouldn't matter. The question is why did he win. Was it because that's the usual swing of vote mood? Possibly. However, I'd say the progressive candidates clearly underestimated Ford and voter anger. They especially misjudged immigrants who is probably the fastest growing voting block. If you don't learn from this, then the next progressive candidate might make the same mistake.

Joe Pantalone was progressive to a degree, but hardly an impressive candidate. A more David Miller-ish progressive candidate - even Miller himself - would have made for a far more interesting race.

The question isn't about whether Kouvalis paid campaign workers a lot - it's whether he violated labour laws and underpaid them, not even reaching minimum wage levels, then bragged about it. Can you at least admit that this is a shitty thing to do?

I agree generally though that the left can learn a lot from this election.

 

[archanfel]

Joe Pantalone was progressive to a degree, but hardly an impressive candidate. A more David Miller-ish progressive candidate - even Miller himself - would have made for a far more interesting race.

The question isn't about whether Kouvalis paid campaign workers a lot - it's whether he violated labour laws and underpaid them, not even reaching minimum wage levels, then bragged about it. Can you at least admit that this is a shitty thing to do?

I agree generally though that the left can learn a lot from this election.

I will say this, if they did break the law, then they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I suspect you and me would have very different opinions on minimum wages, but that's irrelevant.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Oh, I'm sure we do. The libertarian argument against the minimum wage is classic. Almost as good as "FDR's social programs made the Great Depression worse!"

 

[archanfel]

Oh, I'm sure we do. The libertarian argument against the minimum wage is classic. Almost as good as "FDR's social programs made the Great Depression worse!"

Ah, wouldn't that be a fun argument. But, as I said, it's irrelevant. The law is the law. No matter how disagreeable they may be, they need to be upheld or the foundation of our society would be shaken.