urbandreamer
recession proof
Get Canadian troops out. Now. That is my order.
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- Thread starter jade_lee
- Start date
lordmandeep
Banned
Typical NDP rhetoric.
NDP are a bunch of isolationist protectionists who think the can build a wall from the world.
NDP are a bunch of isolationist protectionists who think the can build a wall from the world.
jade_lee
Active Member
Francesc Vendrell, the former European Union envoy to Afghanistan, holds that warlordism, as he calls it, is just as much at the root of the insurgency as religious ideology. "In Muslim society, justice is the most essential element, and here in Afghanistan, people simply don't see it exist. They see impunity, they see a few people become extremely wealthy, and they see cruelty," Vendrell says. "Therefore I think many of them are fence sitters. And you can't hope to win an insurgency when the civilians are sitting on the fence."
NATO needs to rethink what they have contributed to.
NATO needs to rethink what they have contributed to.
Brian69
Not the Messiah
Say what?
Before cherry-picking quotes from Time Magazine you might want to look more deeply into what the speaker is on about. You should really take a close look at the people you are using to drive home your usual "NATO out of Afghanistan" rhetoric because what the envoy says and what you want to happen there don't even match up. You neglected to put his comments in proper context. Here's more of what Mr. Vendrell says:
Mr. Vendrell said that nevertheless it was time not to abandon Afghanistan but to redouble efforts there, both military efforts and those to build up civilian institutions and ensure that elections are held next year.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/15/world/asia/15kabul.html?em
So, basically he wants greater efforts at rebuilding infrastructure and avoiding civilian casualties while calling for a greater military buildup there. Well, unlike your point of view he isn't into abandoning Afghanistan.
He urged that Afghan authorities and foreign agencies follow up any military successes against the Taliban with concrete assistance to convince local citizens that Westerners and the Kabul government can deliver security and at least some well-being.
And he believes the Afghan people want safety and security--well, imagine that. Looks like that's the "justice" that people want.
His idea of rethinking NATO is completely different from rethinking NATO in your eyes, and I'll take his experience and interpretation in this one over yours any day. Choose your sources more carefully before running off to look for people who back your point of view.
(great source, by the way as Mr. Vendrell knows well of what he speaks)
Tewder
Senior Member
jade_lee lost credibility on this issue months ago in disparaging the efforts of the Canadian military. I'm only surprised he/she didn't go on to attack fire fighters and police officers, and kick puppies. None of these organizations are perfect, of course not, but the majority of them are working hard doing a job that I consider myself grateful to not have to do!
kEiThZ
Superstar
And the support of folks like yourself is certainly appreciated....
kEiThZ
Superstar
Reading his quote alone would lead to the conclusion that we should re-double our efforts not pull out. If justice is an essential element, and few would disgree with that for any society, should we not work harder to bring that to the Afghans?
The population may be fence sitting, however, they aren't hostile yet. And as long as that's the case, we have a shot at winning them over. It remains in our interest and theirs to ensure that Afghanistan does not remain a failed narco-terror state. Providing them security will allow justice and development to take root eventually moving them off the fence onto our side. Unfortunately, we've done a piss poor job of delivering on that till now....not for lack of trying on the part of a few NATO/coalition countries that are putting in effort into the mission. A new more focused US administration will help turn this around. And if we fail, well the consequences some day will be just as dire for us as the Afghans.
H
Hydrogen
Guest
Ah kEiThZ, you know that someone like jade-lee will never be satisfied by an answer that recognizes the situation as being imperfect and difficult to control. Such admissions are just fodder for continued attacks on those efforts.
Of course, jade_lee has never actually fessed up what as to what the alternative should be (as in stating an actual plan). Nor has jade_lee properly recognized that the Taliban and friends were the type of people who carried crimes against the populace of Afghanistan.
I don't think I'm wrong when I say that what exists today is far better than a country being run by people who operate by splashing acid in the faces of school girls.
Of course, jade_lee has never actually fessed up what as to what the alternative should be (as in stating an actual plan). Nor has jade_lee properly recognized that the Taliban and friends were the type of people who carried crimes against the populace of Afghanistan.
I don't think I'm wrong when I say that what exists today is far better than a country being run by people who operate by splashing acid in the faces of school girls.
Mot
Active Member
How many years until we get to call it Vietnam 3.0?
kEiThZ
Superstar
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I highly doubt that at this point in time involvement in Afghanistan will prevent another 9/11 (if you truly are interested in mass intervention, Pakistan is simmering nicely right next door). The question now is - can western powers be successful in nation building in what has been a basketcase of a country - and the jury is still out on that one.
AoD
AoD
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kEiThZ
Superstar
One less safe haven can't be a bad thing. And when it comes to Pakistan, a regional solution is a must. Obama et al is right on that one. If we pulled out tomorrow, it's a realistic possbility that Pakistan and subsequently the entire South Asian subcontinent could be de-stabilized. So we are stuck with the task off having to rebuild Afghanistan. I don't know if the jury is out on how to do that. We know exactly what to do. It's political will that's lacking. I have attended several conferences where Americans have praised the Canadian approach in Kandahar. But for the rest of NATO to do what we do will take an immense amount of political will in many European capitals that really don't have the stomach for this mission. Sadly, like every other conflict since the 1900s only serious American attention can turn the tide of the conflict.....and for that we might have to wait for the end of the Iraq war to really start turning the tide.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Keithz:
I am afraid the region has already been destablized (not that it was ever that stable in the first place) - and certainly there are some cause/effect issues with regards to Pakistan and foreign involvement in Afghanistan. The last thing you want is another Shah.
Do we? You sound rather confident when the West has an absolutely atrocious record in the region, with absolutely no good example of success to show for it. I think the best one can hope for is neutralize the threat, get out, and keep a close watch on it and be ready to strike hard and fast at the first sign of trouble. Repeat as necessary.
AoD
I am afraid the region has already been destablized (not that it was ever that stable in the first place) - and certainly there are some cause/effect issues with regards to Pakistan and foreign involvement in Afghanistan. The last thing you want is another Shah.
Do we? You sound rather confident when the West has an absolutely atrocious record in the region, with absolutely no good example of success to show for it. I think the best one can hope for is neutralize the threat, get out, and keep a close watch on it and be ready to strike hard and fast at the first sign of trouble. Repeat as necessary.
AoD
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kEiThZ
Superstar
I disagree that the region is perpetually unstable. India remains relatively stable with no serious threat of state collapse. Likewise for Bangladesh. Sri Lanka is looking up as the war looks like it'll come to an end. But all that goes out the window if the Afghan domino falls when we pull out. It's quite likely that the Taliban monster will significantly weaken Pakistan and resume the Kashmiri/Jihadi campaign against India leading to further Indo-Pak tensions, etc.
Easier said than done. As a military guy, I certainly would not support putting ourselves in a position where constant overwatch of Afghanistan is necessary. That's an impossible task. Moreover, once we pull out, the Paks, Indians, Iranians are all going to be delving into the furball to push their own interests making any future intervention to stop any terrorist outfits even more difficult down the line. Pulling out that way would also be the same mistake the west made after defeating the soviets. We didn't help them rebuild and now we are paying for that decision. Hopefully, we won't make the same mistake twice.
We do know what to do when it comes to reconstruction. But it requires time and patience. Here's just one example. Guess how we pick NCOs for the ANA? If you can read, you're an NCO. That's the level of social development that we are dealing with. Not only do we have to train an Army to fight in the middle of a war zone, we have to do with with illiterate recruits, barely literate NCOs and barely competent officers. Yet, by all accounts we are doing quite well. The Afghan units perform well in combat, they have succeeded at maintaining cohesion while being ethnically balanced and have done all this without a break (while our guys do 6 month tours). That's one example. School and clinic construction is another area where progress is slow and steady...mostly because the enemy likes to blow up schools and kill teachers. This stuff takes time. And the big question becomes how much we have as our populations back home flip through CNN and wonder why we are still there.
Mot
Active Member
9/11 simply was men with box cutters and misguided religious and political beliefs, not a nation. The Western leadership needs to realize the Taliban (as horrible as they are) had nothing to do with 9/11, it was Al Qaeda and after all these years we have to realize we are never going to eradicate terrorism. As AOD pointed out Pakistan should be the focus, it's where Al Qaeda has moved onto. It's interesting that we are only willing to use diplomacy in Pakistan yet Afghanistan is by the gun. India is a completely different animal because of the English influence in their society and willingness to accept democracy. The Taliban is an ancient Afghan political movement that is not going away simply because we try to force them out.
Someone mentioned us liberals cannot complain because of their treatment of women and gays, well yes we can because also under our occupation they still are subjugating and killing minorities. Nothing changes under the current military strategy we are using.
7 years in Afghanistan and little to no progress. The Russians were there 10 years with 160,000 troops and had no success. Using military force all those years and nothing was solved. Even the majority of Aghani people don't want us there because we are seen as occupiers. What is the goal there, what does success look like? What we are doing doesn't even look remotely like a goal or any level of success. The soldier are doing their jobs, it's the leadership that is the issue.
I know you are going to ask me what else we should do? I can only say what we are doing isn't working, the strategy of more of the same with more troops sounds a bit like the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Sometimes you have to accept what you can get and not what you want. We elect people to do better job and we're not even trying to pressure them for a better or even different solution.
Someone mentioned us liberals cannot complain because of their treatment of women and gays, well yes we can because also under our occupation they still are subjugating and killing minorities. Nothing changes under the current military strategy we are using.
7 years in Afghanistan and little to no progress. The Russians were there 10 years with 160,000 troops and had no success. Using military force all those years and nothing was solved. Even the majority of Aghani people don't want us there because we are seen as occupiers. What is the goal there, what does success look like? What we are doing doesn't even look remotely like a goal or any level of success. The soldier are doing their jobs, it's the leadership that is the issue.
I know you are going to ask me what else we should do? I can only say what we are doing isn't working, the strategy of more of the same with more troops sounds a bit like the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Sometimes you have to accept what you can get and not what you want. We elect people to do better job and we're not even trying to pressure them for a better or even different solution.