[TheKingEast]

Clearly Kingeast is so blinded by an agenda that he cannot even read for content. How many different ways can anybody state this is not about 'race'?? Unfortunately, that's all he sees is colour. So sad for the vicitms of these crimes, not to mention the many wasted lives that will fall into crime, that people like Kingeast continue to stymie an important conversation with such prejudiced views.

Fortunately AoD, Marko, Woodbridge, TrickyRicky and myself have all agreed this isn't about 'blacks' as Kingeast and Vox put it, and that this is a worthy conversation to have if looking for real and effective ways of dealing with these issues.

Blinded by an agenda?

All I see is color? Really? Yet this kind of shit was posted in the thread by the people you defend:

I'll bite, even though I never posted here about the Eaton Centre shooting.

Out of Toronto's 60~ murders every year, 40-45 of them are black-on-black killings. Out of the remaining 15-20, you have some of the usual spousal related stuff, the occasional Vietnamese drug dealer or mafia type hit, and the occasional dead prostitute or child abduction type thing. Say there were 2-3 mafia related murders every year, it would still be a dramatically lower percentage of that identifiable ethnic group (with about 750,000 Italians in the GTA) committing murders, when compared to a much larger percentage of a much smaller identifiable ethnic group that commits some 70% of all murders in the city.

People of African or Caribbean descent from countries other than Jamaica or Somalia are not the ones committing these crimes - and they do get unfairly tarnished by this sort of activity - but let's not pretend that the ones who do commit the killings are not from an identifiable background.

Further, it's a much more rare event that a mafia type killing results in innocent bystanders being hit or killed, let alone multiple bystanders. It does happen, of course, like Elaine Russo at California Sandwiches a few years back, but they're not the ones indiscriminately spraying nightclubs, backyard parties or foodcourts with bullets. The second person injured in Little Italy was hit will a bullet fragment that ricocheted and not an errant bullet from someone who was probably trying to look cool while doing the deed.

This entire post is nothing but speculative bullshit. There isn't a single substantiated fact. It's nothing but assumptions. Yet all I see is colour?

Some more hearsay passed on as fact:

Yeah. When only 69 of 389 murder victims since 2006 are white - less than 18% - that means that either white people are killing off minorities in staggering numbers, or they are offing each other. I've spent almost 45 minutes looking for the quote, but I remember reading that for any of the many black men who have been killed, it's a statistical anomaly if it is anyone but another black man to have been the perpetrator and they are usually known to both each other and the police before it happened.

And I wonder which cultures you're referring to.

Violence is engrained in certain cultures, it's how some people are taught/encouraged to resolve conflict. Unfortunately this also gets reinforced/glamourized now through certain forms of popular culture (oh for when numbers by Cole Porter topped the charts!). When you throw in social issues such as absentee fathers, discrimination that still unfortunately exists to a certain extent and the resulting collective feeling of marginalization you get problems... unfortunately this is a situation that is only going to get bigger not smaller..

And the ever popular....

... and I suppose you are jumping to the conclusion that they are all white? Racist!

What is the debate again?

Ahh, the old "I know I have no chance of winning this debate because I have no cogent arguments to make, so I will instead claim to take the high road while taking swipes at the characters of others who are willing and able to make a point and take stand on this issue, which I clearly am not" reply. Golf clap for you.

Clearly some here have no idea what racism is. Look at this wonderful post

Racism would be saying that they are criminals because they are black. We all know this is not true.

Some people seem to only know what overt racism is. They don't understand all the other forms of racism. You don't have to blatantly say blacks are criminals, but the tone of many of the posts here inferred that.

And then it's rounded out by the "but I know black people who agree with me" post

It is unfortunately a delicate discussion where discussing matters of race is necessary, but that does not make it racist in the derogatory, inflammatory sense. I know people from various African or Caribbean communities who hate the fact that they are perceived differently because of the acts of the few, but they know that changing these perceptions won't happen as long as the actions of those few keep occurring.

And I'm the troll.

Why was Four Rivers' comment that basically started this discussion removed? Hmmm? You choose to align yourself with the people who made the above comments and expect me to take you seriously on this topic? LOL.

 

[Marko]

You choose to align yourself with the people who made the above comments and expect me to take you seriously on this topic? LOL.

Laugh all you like, you haven't been able to refute a single thing that has been said.

You ask for proof when you know it doesn't exist, since people like you don't want the actual truth to be made clear. You can't guilt people into being racists, after all, if what they say might actually be proven to have a measure of truth to it.

I posted what info I could. If you don't think the graph from The Star is accurate, go ahead and prove it wrong. I'd like nothing more that to be wrong, actually.

 

[doady]

Try as I might, I couldn't find anything on that graph from the star that supports your claim that "out of Toronto's 60~ murders every year, 40-45 of them are black-on-black killings", unless you using the archaic definition of "black", as in "non-white".

 

[TheKingEast]

Laugh all you like, you haven't been able to refute a single thing that has been said.

You ask for proof when you know it doesn't exist, since people like you don't want the actual truth to be made clear. You can't guilt people into being racists, after all, if what they say might actually be proven to have a measure of truth to it.

I posted what info I could. If you don't think the graph from The Star is accurate, go ahead and prove it wrong. I'd like nothing more that to be wrong, actually.

I haven't been able to refute what you said? I don't need to. Read the frigging graph. Please point out where on that graph does it states that the majority of the murders in the city are committed by blacks.

Also, a newspaper clipping is not my idea of a legitimate source...regardless of what side of the fence I'm on. I wouldn't expect you to actually do some proper research before talking out of your ass.

I haven't called you or anyone in this thread racist...so you can drop that. Keep regurgitating the same old tired, talking points.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

KingEast. Do you approve of the usage of the words "mafia", "italians" with respect the Little Italy shooting. As these words were used to characterize the shooting virtually the next post after the original posting of this thread. This despite the FACTS that the victim was of Portugese descent, not Italian. Was involved in Biker Gangs, not the Mafia. That the shooter was of unknown descent and had no involvement in organized crime but did have, allegedly, a criminal record. Will you stand up and say that those comments were uncalled for???

Meanwhile what we know about the Eaton Centre shooting... Both victim and shooter had recently been released from prison and that one had immigrated here when he was 13. Someone earlier asked why nobody is demanding that the Little Italy shooter be deported, similarly to the Eaton Centre shooting. But we don't know if he is an immigrant or a born in Canada, Canadian. Where exactly can we deport a Canadian who commits crimes in Canada???

 

[Marko]

Try as I might, I couldn't find anything on that graph from the star that supports your claim that "out of Toronto's 60~ murders every year, 40-45 of them are black-on-black killings", unless you using the archaic definition of "black", as in "non-white".

I didn't intend for that graph to be proof of black-on-black crime specifically. Vox and KE wanted to know why there wasn't an equal amount of outrage over a mob hit or "non black" killing, trying to stoke racial fires, and I posted the graph to show that even though whites make up the largest group of the population, they are involved in less than 18% of murders in the last 10 years - and that is why police, gov't, media, etc... don't respond to these killings in the same way.

When a killing occurs, the race of the killer is always mentioned in the description and news reports, be it white, black, asian, etc... but somehow when it's a black man it's somehow racist to include the description. If they're looking for a suspect, they have to describe him and if you're the kind of guy that goes around shooting up public places, yes that makes you a thug regardless of your race.

I also said that concrete stats are not available because the organizations responsible are not allowed to keep/publish these stats. I made very clear I was basing my comments on 20+ years living in the city and being aware of what's happening in the news, so it was anecdotal.

If you don't think my estimated breakdown is accurate, please feel free to correct me - or post your own. Really, I'd love to see it. KE? Vox? Step on up. We know there are an average of 60+ murders in Toronto every year, please make an estimate of how they break down by race.

 

[Marko]

http://www.facebook.com/whataboutoursons/info

Facebook page (run by a black woman) who laments the high rate of violence among young black men. According to her (not scientific), in Toronto there were 31 gun homicides in 2010 - 29 of them black men.

29/60 is by gun only. I don't know if other methods like stabbings gets it to the 40+ for 2010, but even so - it is still disproportionately high.

For anyone wondering, the main reason I came up with that 40-45 number because I remember reading one of the newspapers a couple of years back where they posted a photograph in memory of every murder victim that past year and it worked out to 2/3 of all victims being black. In any given year, if we have 60+ murders a year then we likely have 40+ dead black men between 16-35. Most are known to each other and to the police beforehand.

To sit back and deny this is astounding, really.

 

[Transportfan]

You might as well give it up Marko. The only "facts" on this board are politicaly correct ones.

 

[Marko]

You might as well give it up Marko. The only "facts" on this board are politicaly correct ones.

I'll make just one more post for now, and then leave it until there's something else that necessitates a reply.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/article/914504--toronto-police-struggling-to-solve-murders

Externally, some cite the lack of visible minorities in the homicide squad as a reason for a decline in solved homicides, particularly when Toronto is plagued with an inordinately high number of young black men killing other young black males.

Six years ago, then-Toronto police chief Julian Fantino said the force needed more black officers on the homicide squad to help crack cases where the majority of victims and suspects are black.

IIRC, Fantino was roundly criticized from all sides for trying to have a more frank discussion about race... then...

At the time, there was only one black detective: Saunders.

Today, none of the 32 homicide detectives working under Saunders is black.

Which leads to...

Since Jan 2010, as of today, there are now 56 UNSOLVED MURDERS, 52 BLACK!

http://www.superkemi.com/2012_06_03_archive.html


It's out there for anyone to read for themselves if they are first willing pull their heads out of the ground.

 

[doady]

http://www.facebook.com/whataboutoursons/info

Facebook page (run by a black woman) who laments the high rate of violence among young black men. According to her (not scientific), in Toronto there were 31 gun homicides in 2010 - 29 of them black men.

29/60 is by gun only. I don't know if other methods like stabbings gets it to the 40+ for 2010, but even so - it is still disproportionately high.

For anyone wondering, the main reason I came up with that 40-45 number because I remember reading one of the newspapers a couple of years back where they posted a photograph in memory of every murder victim that past year and it worked out to 2/3 of all victims being black. In any given year, if we have 60+ murders a year then we likely have 40+ dead black men between 16-35. Most are known to each other and to the police beforehand.

To sit back and deny this is astounding, really.

The graph clearly says that that 71% of victims are non-caucasian. For 40-45 out of 60 homicide victims to be black, let alone every single one of their killers being black, close to 100% of non-caucasian victims would have to be black. The only thing that's astounding is that you actually believe this.

 

[TheKingEast]

KingEast. Do you approve of the usage of the words "mafia", "italians" with respect the Little Italy shooting. As these words were used to characterize the shooting virtually the next post after the original posting of this thread. This despite the FACTS that the victim was of Portugese descent, not Italian. Was involved in Biker Gangs, not the Mafia. That the shooter was of unknown descent and had no involvement in organized crime but did have, allegedly, a criminal record. Will you stand up and say that those comments were uncalled for???

Never heard "mafia" or that the shooter was italian. But that should show you just how quickly people like to jump to conclusions....and it should also show you just how powerful the media is at shaping peoples minds with bullshit. Just like how some dude in here said some cultures are more violent than others...and directed that towards blacks. Yet if we look throughout history...you tell me which culture has been more violent. I mean, the information is all there but people refuse to read it. And context is everything. You can't just look at stats and then draw a giant conclusion (ie: absentee fathers, violent culture).

Meanwhile what we know about the Eaton Centre shooting... Both victim and shooter had recently been released from prison and that one had immigrated here when he was 13. Someone earlier asked why nobody is demanding that the Little Italy shooter be deported, similarly to the Eaton Centre shooting. But we don't know if he is an immigrant or a born in Canada, Canadian. Where exactly can we deport a Canadian who commits crimes in Canada???

Why exactly is this being addressed to me? I haven't said any of the above.

 

[TheKingEast]

You might as well give it up Marko. The only "facts" on this board are politicaly correct ones.

If it's so apparent to you, Marko, Tewder and the rest of the brigade that 75% of murderers are black, then why is it so hard for you guys to produce something tangible to support your claim?

Newspaper clippings and facebook groups? Really? And the guy still doesn't get it. It's simple frigging math as someone else said. Using the same stats that he produced to support his argument....he was still WRONG!

 

[AKS]

Meanwhile what we know about the Eaton Centre shooting... Both victim and shooter had recently been released from prison and that one had immigrated here when he was 13. Someone earlier asked why nobody is demanding that the Little Italy shooter be deported, similarly to the Eaton Centre shooting. But we don't know if he is an immigrant or a born in Canada, Canadian. Where exactly can we deport a Canadian who commits crimes in Canada???

Seriously, I don't know what crime has to be committed to get deported out of the country. I read in an article about a sexual assaulter from 20 years ago. He claimed not guilty but never showed up to court. He's a refugee whose application for citizenship got rejected. But he's still wandering around in Canada. I'm surprised the police didn't try to track him down if he didn't show up to court to prove he's not guilty. It's only now they are taking him to court, 20 yrs later.

http://m.torontosun.com/2012/06/25/man-guilty-of-sexually-assaulting-teen

 

[urbandreamer]

That cover story was on the front page of the Toronto Sun about 1.5 years ago. I remember many of my co-workers (many from the Caribbean) arguing with me about that cover, but the facts were facts and hard to argue with. I recall some profiles--maybe 20% were missing photos--so we speculated as to their ethnic identities. I recall some of them had obvious giveaways, names like those weird Lexus/Mercedes/etc names which are pretty rare in Waspy circles....

Everyone eventually told me the issue here is that guns in the Caribbean are associated with social status. To have a gun is "manly." So bring that culture here and you get nasty results.

It's like biker gangs--those members often come from backgrounds where guns are seen as status symbols--hunting, rural lifestyles etc.

 

[Marko]

If it's so apparent to you, Marko, Tewder and the rest of the brigade that 75% of murderers are black, then why is it so hard for you guys to produce something tangible to support your claim?

I never used the number 75%. I went out on a limb and *estimated* that in a typical year of 60+ murders in Toronto, that 40 or more are likely to be black. I'm not willing to put a hard number on it, but I am comfortable in saying that I believe it to be at least 50%. Even this number is disproportionately high.

I know you prefer criticizing the posts of others rather than stating anything yourself that can be judged, but please - if you dispute my estimates - you are welcome to prove me wrong. You won't find numbers to back you up since they don't exist - so it's completely disingenuous for you to demand that I post them - but how about you at least post some estimates of your own?