[ai3xskc]

When I say spending more for less meant smart spending even though it's serving less people but at the same time prioritizing where it's being spent, ie Eglington Ave. and making the entire subway system make sense.

Btw, where would this above ground trench be? If it's not taking away car lanes than does that mean we're taking away possible car lane expansion?

We think alike Alex.. haha

I also didn't understand when he said "above ground" and "trench"... two opposite words. How can you have a trench above ground? Maybe a lane enclosed by side walls? If so, crossing traffic would be impossible. Maybe valvenis meant elevated LRT? Now that would be expensive (prob. as expensive as subways) and terrible in our winters.

 

[valvenis]

Now THAT looks like a big city transit system.
And not Mayor Miller's half baked "Tommy the Trolley" network....bringing mediocrity to all corners of the city.

Until the mayor actually finds funding for Sheppard - That map's nothing more than a five legged unicorn. The only thing guaranted to be built (Eglinton crosstown) was part of Transit City and Metrolinx.

 

[valvenis]

If you want an example of what I'm talking about take a look at various sections of the Yonge line between Bloor and Eglinton.

There's nothing stopping something like that being built with cars crossing overhead on bridges.

BTW - since when did car lane expansion become the be all and end all? If you're worried about traffic then transit is more important anyways generally carries more people per vehicle.

There's also an old adage that increasing car lanes doesn't actually reduce traffic on a road. It generally leads to more people end up driving on the expanded road, which leaves you exactly where you started.

 

[Big Daddy]

Major transit lines need to be underground. Cheaping out with streetcar lines in the middle of the street only makes the situation worse and both car and transit and service would be slower and much more susceptible to weather problems.

I do have to ask though that with a much greater population in the west, why is the east always getting more transit considerations?

 

[Duke Wellington]

This is a very good plan!

1) Underground LRT or subway is the way to go. Why would I take public transit if I am subjected to traffic lights and cars. Also, as a driver I would not be happy with public transit taking away a lane of traffic. Eglington needs a line desperately and underground in the way to go. The person that mentioned that we will be happy about this decision to put it underground in 50 years in correct.

2) The sheppard line connecting to scarborough as well as closing the loop to downsview makes a lot of sense as well. Yes the city will have to come up with 4 billion, but they were able to do it for the first stage of the sheppard subway so I am positive they can do it again.

This is a very good start for Rob ford, and much better than mayor millers frankentransit plan!

If he can get a steeles line going and two more north south lines, than we will truly have a good transit system.

 

[Duke Wellington]

Major transit lines need to be underground. Cheaping out with streetcar lines in the middle of the street only makes the situation worse and both car and transit and service would be slower and much more susceptible to weather problems.

I do have to ask though that with a much greater population in the west, why is the east always getting more transit considerations?

agreed, spadina and st clair aren't that much of an upgrade over buses.

 

[CanadianNational]

Advantages:

a) The map looks nifty! Just like a world class city!

b) Having Eglinton mostly underground for most of it's length is nice. Just like a subway. Which it is. Except it isn't. But close enough. Kindof. Mostly, sort of.

Drawbacks:

a) The drawing of the new Sheppard line really completes the map. It looks like Rob Ford has really done it! So what if it is a complete fiction? Who cares if it's problematically yet non-funded, and is not likely to be in place before most forumers here are using canes to hail cabs, and losing their false teeth? That is, if gambling a big chunk of the city's financial future on a yet unthunk-of deal on kilometres of underdeveloped suburban track leaves anything left for things like senior care.

b) Sorry West End. You get bupkis. Aren't you supposed to be better off than the East End, anyway?

c) So what if Eglinton doesn't go to the airport? Be glad you're getting anything at all!

d) As for the Queen Street Sub - er, underground LRT, the Downtown Relief Line and Waterfront Transit....sorry pinkos, better luck next time!

 

[Internets]

agreed, spadina and st clair aren't that much of an upgrade over buses.

I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated, but the LRT lines where not going to be like St. Clair or Spadina. The Traffic lights and stations are spaced further apart where they were planned to run. That being said, I would say that St. Clair is a huge improvement over a bus, but that is just opinion and cannot be argued.

Some facts that can: LRTs average about 23 km/h service speeds, subways 33 km/h. The new Eglinton line will be underground, but with more frequent stops, so lets say 30 km/h average. So over a 22 km route it will take 44 minutes, the old design, with 6 km underground would take 54 minutes. So 10 minutes savings for 4 billion. People, possibly including yourself, made a huge fuss because st. clair only improved travel times by 3-5 minutes and cost 0.15 billion. Having it below ground doesn't increase the capacity of the line either, the only thing it does ist get it out of the way of cars. For 4 billion, at the expense of 25km of rapid transit.

Oh whats that you say? Its not at the expense of a full 25 km of rapid transit because the Sheppard line is getting half built as a subway. Really?, funded with future development fees along the line? Lets look at those facts. Average development charge for Toronto is 12,500 per unit. Lets say they double that for the privilege of building along the Sheppard line and give it all to the subway developer. That would require 166000 new units along Sheppard or 330 40 story buildings, IS YOU SERIOUS? Add to that the fact that the city is on the hook for all of the infrastructure (sewers, schools etc) for all these new units that development fees would usually go to, and the fact that the developer of the subway or the TTC (still fuzzy on these details) will be taking a bath on the operating costs of the subway for the next 30 years.

All of that being said, I think its an OK plan, it gets transit moving, A DRL is needed more than Sheppard, but beggars can't be choosers. I am also OK with my taxes going up to pay for transit expansion, I hope you all are as well.

 

[W. K. Lis]

This is a very good plan!

1) Underground LRT or subway is the way to go. Why would I take public transit if I am subjected to traffic lights and cars. Also, as a driver I would not be happy with public transit taking away a lane of traffic. Eglington needs a line desperately and underground in the way to go. The person that mentioned that we will be happy about this decision to put it underground in 50 years in correct.

2) The sheppard line connecting to scarborough as well as closing the loop to downsview makes a lot of sense as well. Yes the city will have to come up with 4 billion, but they were able to do it for the first stage of the sheppard subway so I am positive they can do it again.

This is a very good start for Rob ford, and much better than mayor millers frankentransit plan!

If he can get a steeles line going and two more north south lines, than we will truly have a good transit system.

If there are less cars on the roads because of rising gasoline prices (129.5¢ this weekend for example) they'll need public transit ALL over Toronto, not just one small section. With surface rapid transit, it can be built faster and less expensive. But for millionaires like the Ford brothers and you, the rising gasoline prices wouldn't be much of a pain in the pocket book like the rest of us.

 

[Duke Wellington]

If there are less cars on the roads because of rising gasoline prices (129.5¢ this weekend for example) they'll need public transit ALL over Toronto, not just one small section. With surface rapid transit, it can be built faster and less expensive. But for millionaires like the Ford brothers and you, the rising gasoline prices wouldn't be much of a pain in the pocket book like the rest of us.

The majority of Toronto wants UNDERGROUND transit period! Building something faster is not necessarily the right choice! Also eliminating roadways is not the best choice! People will migrate toward subway lines, case in point Sheppard. Look at all the development along that line.

 

[4pook]

Cities around the world use a working mix of every kind of transit talked about and they all have issues over time and they can all work. I'm happy to see a line along Eglinton is actually going to be built, though I didn't mind its earlier incarnation being partly exposed and going farther and not totally wasting an amount of tax money more than sufficient to completely fill City Hall with paper clips, gravy mix and lunch chits. During the morning rush hour though, when all those people arrive at once at Eglinton Station, I wouldn't want to be a passenger needing to transfer south, onto a line already over capacity, nor would I want to have to regularly breathe anywhere along the Finch West enhanced bus line unless those buses are going trolley, which I doubt. I am doubting that anytime soon will you be able to alight from a subway station near Agincourt Mall.

 

[Alex S]

Cities around the world use a working mix of every kind of transit talked about and they all have issues over time and they can all work. I'm happy to see a line along Eglinton is actually going to be built, though I didn't mind its earlier incarnation being partly exposed and going farther and not totally wasting an amount of tax money more than sufficient to completely fill City Hall with paper clips, gravy mix and lunch chits. During the morning rush hour though, when all those people arrive at once at Eglinton Station, I wouldn't want to be a passenger needing to transfer south, onto a line already over capacity, nor would I want to have to regularly breathe anywhere along the Finch West enhanced bus line unless those buses are going trolley, which I doubt. I am doubting that anytime soon will you be able to alight from a subway station near Agincourt Mall.

Good point on the Eglinton/Yonge subway transfer.

Hopefully by the time the Eglinton line is up and running, so would the new subway cars and system.

 

[DTowner]

@Canadian National: Cool avatar! "Doomsday is Tomorrow". Definitive episode of BW.

@the Rob Fordiots: Please. Ford has nothing to do with this. Most of this was planned way before that moron took office.

 

[Leximus]

I have a question, what is the difference between an underground LRT and a subway? Are they not the same thing? Thanks.

 

[CanadianNational]

If you're a Fordite they seem to amount to the same thing. Unless the LRT is on the surface, in which case it's transformed from a streamlined and efficient contemporary mode of commuting to a screeching, clanging overcrowded obstacle to progress.

The Eglinton LRT is only nominally a subway. In that it's a 'way' that goes 'under' traffic for a lot of it's length. But categorically, it's still an LRT...just with a lot of tunneling. Because they're not generally used underground, they've been spared the 'subway' moniker.

Classic subways, like the Yonge-Bloor line, are made with a classic heavy-gauge, wide-set rail and long train setup. To move huge amounts of people under urban centres, this type of setup is pretty common, and has come to be referred to as 'subways' - even if they do go above ground for stretches.

^btw Thanks DTowner. Yeah, my favourite episode.

I must say Ford's really doing a number here. First by taking credit for an audit Miller started, now delivering us only part of a system assembled by Miller, that was ready and paid for to go in full.