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More data showing slowdown:[/U Sorry, there are graphs on the article but did not replicate here.
visual look at Canada’s housing starts

Andrew Barr/National Post
A break down of Canada's October housing starts.

The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp revealed on Monday that housing starts fell more than expected in October. There were 167,900 starts last month (based on an annualized rate), down 9.2% from 185,000 in September.

Above, we break down the numbers to give you an idea of where starts were weakest, and which provinces and areas bucked the trend.

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Posted in: FP Post


Read more: http://business.financialpost.com/2...=14228&preview_nonce=4d95338fb8#ixzz14iOjveop



the largest decline came from starts in Ontario urban centres - declined by approx 25% ... would that be mostly attributed to Toronto, K-W and Ottawa?

Goldbug over here,

A big rise in inflation means that you should invest in gold. Don't hold your cash, don't hold on to things that risk bursts. It's worked for me so far :D


do you hold the actual bullion or miners?
the miners have gone up also but not as much as the PM
 
the largest decline came from starts in Ontario urban centres - declined by approx 25% ... would that be mostly attributed to Toronto, K-W and Ottawa?

They define urban areas as over 10,000 people: so really Towns vs. Rural.
My guess would be that all the 3 mentioned by you would be in the same proportion but without an actual breakdown one really can't tell.
I am sure the figures will come out shortly.

I
 
Link to an article in today's The Globe and Mail -- Chinese stoke Toronto's condo boom.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/chinese-stoke-torontos-condo-boom/article1795047/

my favourite quote:

Experts like Barry Lyon of N. Barry Lyon Consulting Ltd. point out that, because of rent controls, about 98 per cent of new rental suites have come from investor-owned condos. Just two years ago when prices for new suites reached the stage where they made little economic sense as a rental unit, investors fled the market.
 
my favourite quote:

Experts like Barry Lyon of N. Barry Lyon Consulting Ltd. point out that, because of rent controls, about 98 per cent of new rental suites have come from investor-owned condos. Just two years ago when prices for new suites reached the stage where they made little economic sense as a rental unit, investors fled the market.

funny cdr, when I read the article, it was exactly that which jumped out at me too. "Made little economic sense". Isn't that what a number of us have been saying for the past 2 years.

The other part I liked was the 4% return. Now smaller units to keep the price down. I don't know that all these "renters" will accept smaller and smaller places just because it makes sense to the investors to buy on paper. I suspect these very small units might in a few years simply end up getting bought up to be combined with units next door to make a larger living space more palatable to the average Canadian renter. I am not talking about the minority who manage in extremely small spaces though I admire their ability to do so.

One additional note. My father was a European immigrant. He told me after living here for 30 years that he could not live in Europe anymore. He could visit. When I asked why, he said it was the openness and the space. He could not get used to again living in small cramped quarters. My point is that Canadians are not used to very small living spaces. While they may initially try it, I am not sure they will go for it in the long term.
 
year 1998 - a 800 sq. feet two bedroom condo (not downtown) in Shanghai $200,000 to $300,000 RMB ($40K to $50K CAD)
year 2010 the price increased 10 times to $400K to $500K CAD

It is not unusual a family owns 2 to 3 properties of the above so I have no doubt people's affordability coming from Shanghai / Beijing - if they decided to immigrate. However just for investment purpose I have not heard any of the cases so far from my relatives and friends group. People in SH still believe their R/E market will not crash and will increase as it surged in the past ten years...so do not know how much we can believe from the article.
 
year 1998 - a 800 sq. feet two bedroom condo (not downtown) in Shanghai $200,000 to $300,000 RMB ($40K to $50K CAD)
year 2010 the price increased 10 times to $400K to $500K CAD

It is not unusual a family owns 2 to 3 properties of the above so I have no doubt people's affordability coming from Shanghai / Beijing - if they decided to immigrate. However just for investment purpose I have not heard any of the cases so far from my relatives and friends group. People in SH still believe their R/E market will not crash and will increase as it surged in the past ten years...so do not know how much we can believe from the article.

That is the trouble with all bubbles. People think it is normal until it becomes unsustainable. I am not saying SH will crash. I have no idea. It just seems to me that what increases 10 fold in 10 years must have become unaffordable now and when it does correct if it does, it will be very ugly.
Just look at the US in those areas that tripled in the past 10 years and just gave most of it back now. Or Japan which for 15 years has seen real estate more than 1/2 in value. Now, I get the China story but I seem to remember Japan was going to take over from the US and it imploded. Now there is 4.4% inflation in China from 3.6% last month. In inflation continues and the Bank of China reels it in (by tightening money supply) expect those ballooning R/E prices to start falling and probably rapidly.
You clearly are in a better position to understand the psyche of the Chinese since you have friends/family there. So I defer to your judgement as to what you think they may do. It is interesting to me to hear that you disagree with the premises being put forth (at least some of them in the article).
Would you say that it is the R/E industry "spinning in a favourable light again".
Also, again we see this 100000/yr immigration and I believe this has been somewhat dispelled though constantly quoted. (See other posters comments on the true immigration in Toronto being around 17000 and not 100000).
 
The psyche of the Chinese -

1. R/E demands in big cities such as SH/BJ in China simply from population growth - end of year 2004 16.7 million, end of year 2009 19.2 million, so 500,000 immigrants per year? (common phenomena in developing country, big cities flooded with people from all over the country, Asia and the world)

2. do not ever overlook and/or underestimate what the Chinese government's role in preventing any sort of crash that will destabilize the society so people trust they are still in a safe boat

3. hardship the Chinese government now face: receiving debt pay back from US (from money US just printed) => storing the US bills in reserves => printing RMB following US => diluting money market => inflated crazily => compounded with current dramatic wealth spread (which means huge difference between Wealth and Poor) & compounded with poor social welfare => unstable society environment => more people decide to immigrate

But you can see the third point it takes time for people to realize and to move ahead (not necessary all of them to decide to immigrate to Canada); plus Canada just tightened immigration policy therefore we will need to wait and see the trend. People (especially very wealthy people) may have started to think about or to act on it but my judgement was based on typical middle class people.
 
X2
Thank you for this.
I appreciate the insight you provide.
I agree with your 2nd point. I am just not sure the government will be able to control this.
I have wondered about the 1 child policy and that there must be alot of old people now with not as many young to contribute as existed 20-40 years ago. I would believe there will be tremendous social unrest over the next 20 years as the conflict between the older and middle age Chinese plays out with the middle age group being unwilling or unable to fund the lifestyle the elders are hoping for. I agree it will take time for this to occur as you point out.
I have one other concern. I have heard (totally unsubstiated) that the real inflation in China is closer to 7% and not the 4.4% reported. Would you have information in this regard. As well, if that is in fact the case, the levers to reign it in with increased interest rates in China will make borrowing more difficult.
I appreciate the Chinese have saved alot more than the North American counterpart so there will still be money to invest but I have to believe that this will start to put a ceiling on escalation of how much assets can increase and also on how much money will be available to invest abroad since I believe that people will take care of their domestic needs first(though not exclusively).
 
Interested, in regarding to your comments -

you are correct about one child policy - the policy started in year 1980 so we are still in pre-stage of the problem you indicated. Parents who have get regulated under the policy since 30 year ago aged between 55~60 currently or younger. China is aware of the problem now and I heard it may consider to change the policy soon to allow a family to have two instead of one.

Inflation rate over 5%, around 6% is a realistic figure. Food price in China you need to spend one person's monthly income to support family's consumption. One of the news I have read in July Pork price increased 74.6%. Oppositely since China's very cheap labor cost, restaurant meal is very affordable so you can eat out everyday if you wish (sorry off the topic a bit here :)

Some interesting figures in SH - Average annual household income 70K RMB ($12K CAD), average house sold price 2.6 Million RMB ($400K CAD), 37 times. (note it may not be that dramatic since the hidden income is hard to measure - there was one news in early 2010 the total China bank deposit savings is over GDP 30% something like this. It implies the income reported is much lower than actual earnings due to immature financial system / corruptions)

Today when I was watching Beijing TV station that talks about the US 60 billion money printing, the expert still recommend the R/E as a good investment and Gold to against the inflation to Chinese people.

China will have enough savings for domestic needs and should use the reserves to purchase US real assets (not their bonds anymore) IMO.
 
X2:

thank you again. Very useful information.

I would still worry about a housing bubble in China. Even if we assume 1/2 of all the income is hidden, the average house sold price would be 18.5 (1/2 of 37) times the average income. A 15% pullback would result in most savings being wiped out by this logic if one had to sell and every person owned a house. ( I realize that is not the case but it does sober one up as to how a little jolt will have very severe effects). A 15% sell off from the top is not alot when you say it has increased 10 fold over the past 12-13 years(as you stated in an earlier post).

The other issue is if China uses its domestic savings for domestic needs, suddenly all those reserves become much more important in day to day life to avoid the social unrest potential problem. (Just look at France, Ireland, Greece and Spain if austerity measures need to start). At that point, perhaps those with money will still look to invest in more stable economies (let's hope that is Canada) but it certainly means our Canadian real estate is at risk since as you have apply demonstrated, and from the article stating that most of the domestic investor demand dried up in 2008, it is very dangerous for Canada's real estate to be dependent on the Chinese state of affairs. Right now, China is a juggernaught. What would happen to China and Canada should it sputter?
 
I recently got a letter from One Cole the project in Regent Park and they are offering townhomes in the 500K range. Jeebus who is buying this stuff? One of our stories in the news the other day is how they had to cancel after school tutoring in Regent Park because kids were getting mugged on their way home since it is now darker earlier.
 
Crash view point:
The Real Face of The Chinese Realty Bubble

A very worrisome article. I believe the likelihood of the Chinese government (or any government for that matter) successfully negotiating the removal of the excess capital and growth is concerning at best and wishful in the worse case.On the other hand:
China Real-Estate Bubble Concern Fails to Deter Global Investors

The reason bubbles keep occuring is that people ignore the "obvious warning signs". China is in unchartered territories with prices far exceeding normal metrics with regard to growth in price, growth in income, rent/price ratios, etc. Those who ignore do so at their own peril.

X2: What do you believe will happen in China? My personal belief is that like Japan in the 1990's, it got way ahead of itself and my suspicion is there is going to be an implosion. The only 2 issues from my view are: How bad will the implosion be and when will it occur.

Property prices and sales expected to fall 1.3% in Canada in 2011

CREA's forecasting has been a joke. This is not forecasting that they do. It is statistical manipulation. On the sales data, they were calling for a 13% increase for 2010 in or around Feb 2010. They have revised twice to now say a 9% decrease for 2010. Missing the boat by 20+%. And getting the direction totally wrong. Prices: They are late to the party on this one too. They still talk in terms of prices being up year on year when it would be much more relevant but not self serving for them to point out that prices are down since May 2010 to present. CREA will only begrugingly acknowledge this when it is so clear and undeniable that the layperson on the street can see it for what it is. In the meantime, they hope to spin and sugar coat everything in the hope to delude the average investor/home owner into believing their home value is safe.
In the US, the NRA(National Realtor Association) denied the drop, then said when it continued that it now found a floor, and more recently that prices are even rising when the consensus view(outside the NRA ) is that prices have further to fall.

In fairness to them though, how could they say anything but this and still be a lobby group for their industry. So remove their vested interest and ask yourself how objective CREA could be even in the face of overwhelming evidence
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