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So we finally have a ton of Spring 2013 precon launches--King Blue, Art House, Casa 3, Noir, 2 High Park area projects, 155 Redpath and quite a number of other projects. It will be interesting to read the April 2013 sales tally mid-May.

Any updates on 155 Redpath sales? Conservative modernism it may be, but it's still one of the best-looking projects in the neighbourhood.
 
Not necessarily?

http://slumbuddy.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/comparison-of-us-and-canadian-tax-rates-for-2010/
Maximum federal income tax rate in Canada: 29%
Maximum federal income tax rate in US (single): 35% going up to 39.6%

Maximum capital gains rate in Canada: 14.5% (half of capital gains is taxable as regular income, the other half is tax free)
Maximum long term capital gains rate in US: 15% going up to 20%
Maximum short term capital gains rate in US: same as income

Maximum estate tax in Canada: 0%
Maximum estate tax in US: 35% perhaps going back up to 50%


I'm not sure how accurate these numbers are or if they've changed since 2010...

They may be factually accurate, but they are entirely misleading.

They don't include provincial/state taxes. Provincial taxes are significantly higher in Canada than the US. The top marginal rate in Ontario is 18%, vs a top rate that is usually well below 10% in the US.

The top US rate applies to income >$400k, whereas the top Canadian rate applies to income >$130k. The comparable rate for the US at <$190k is 28%. And the 33% up to $400k.

Ie for someone in the $150-$250 range in Canada, you're paying top marginal rate of 47%, vs in the US at prob 35% if single, and in the high 20%s if a couple with a low income spouse.

The US :
-allows couples to joint file, which can substantially reduce income taxes.
-allows much high retirement contribution room (tax fee).
-allows tax deductions on mortgage interest
-has much lower sales tax rates (typically in the 8% range, vs 13% for our HST)

Plus the US is a much more efficient country where goods, travel, etc is much cheaper.

Again, the downside is the absence of a social net. I wouldn't want to be low or even middle income in the US.
 
They may be factually accurate, but they are entirely misleading.

They don't include provincial/state taxes. Provincial taxes are significantly higher in Canada than the US. The top marginal rate in Ontario is 18%, vs a top rate that is usually well below 10% in the US.

The top US rate applies to income >$400k, whereas the top Canadian rate applies to income >$130k. The comparable rate for the US at <$190k is 28%. And the 33% up to $400k.

Ie for someone in the $150-$250 range in Canada, you're paying top marginal rate of 47%, vs in the US at prob 35% if single, and in the high 20%s if a couple with a low income spouse.

The US :
-allows couples to joint file, which can substantially reduce income taxes.
-allows much high retirement contribution room (tax fee).
-allows tax deductions on mortgage interest
-has much lower sales tax rates (typically in the 8% range, vs 13% for our HST)

Plus the US is a much more efficient country where goods, travel, etc is much cheaper.

Again, the downside is the absence of a social net. I wouldn't want to be low or even middle income in the US.

The people making like $150-$250k get a total kick in the pants. We don't qualify for ANY tax deductions for our kids, save for the new Child Arts Credit, and Sports Credit, which is really a drop in the bucket. I think if you're household income is above $91k, you're automatically disqualified from all the child/family tax credits.

Well, we get that stupid $100/month thing UCCB that Harper brought in.

But, when all is said and done, if you factor in sales taxes -- as I've said -- I give over 50% of my money to the government. It's obscene.

When people say: think of the social safety net I enjoy, I ask:what social safety net? In my income bracket, I'm clearly self-sufficient. When you do the breakdown, about 30% of all my tax dollars go to education. In terms of income taxes (not including sales taxes), that's about $35,000/year I'm giving to the public education system. That's an Appleby College tuition every year that I'm paying. According to the stats, the Ontario gov't puts $9,500/year into kids in public schools. I have one kid in school right now. Which means, I'm currently putting 2.5 other kids through school.

I'm hardly benefiting from the social safety net. The social safety net is benefiting from me. =)

I don't even want to do the calculation on how much of my salary goes into the health system every year. Because it's obscene. I'm sure that I'd rather be paying for the absolute best private insurance in the US, than what I'm paying into our public healthcare. Because a back of paper-napkin calculation makes it clear, that I'm personally putting in more money into healthcare every year than is the average household income in Canada. =)

Another way of looking at it is, I could buy a luxury sedan -- paid in full -- every year for what it costs to pay my "fair share" of healthcare in this country.
 
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The people making like $150-$250k get a total kick in the pants. We don't qualify for ANY tax deductions for our kids, save for the new Child Arts Credit, and Sports Credit, which is really a drop in the bucket. I think if you're household income is above $91k, you're automatically disqualified from all the child/family tax credits.

Well, we get that stupid $100/month thing UCCB that Harper brought in.

But, when all is said and done, if you factor in sales taxes -- as I've said -- I give over 50% of my money to the government. It's obscene.

When people say: think of the social safety net I enjoy, I ask:what social safety net? In my income bracket, I'm clearly self-sufficient. When you do the breakdown, about 30% of all my tax dollars go to education. In terms of income taxes (not including sales taxes), that's about $35,000/year I'm giving to the public education system. That's an Appleby College tuition every year that I'm paying. According to the stats, the Ontario gov't puts $9,500/year into kids in public schools. I have one kid in school right now. Which means, I'm currently putting 2.5 other kids through school.

I'm hardly benefiting from the social safety net. The social safety net is benefiting from me. =)

I don't even want to do the calculation on how much of my salary goes into the health system every year. Because it's obscene. I'm sure that I'd rather be paying for the absolute best private insurance in the US, than what I'm paying into our public healthcare. Because a back of paper-napkin calculation makes it clear, that I'm personally putting in more money into healthcare every year than is the average household income in Canada. =)

Another way of looking at it is, I could buy a luxury sedan -- paid in full -- every year for what it costs to pay my "fair share" of healthcare in this country.

Well...yeah. That's how the system works. The more well-off pay in for the benefit of the less well-off. You really thought that you would get more out of the system than you put in, with a family salary of $150,000-$250,000? Not in Canada, not in any developed nation with a progressive tax system (including the US). Despite that, you would very likely be better off financially living in the US. The downside is, you have to live in the US.
 
Well...yeah. That's how the system works. The more well-off pay in for the benefit of the less well-off. You really thought that you would get more out of the system than you put in, with a family salary of $150,000-$250,000? Not in Canada, not in any developed nation with a progressive tax system (including the US). Despite that, you would very likely be better off financially living in the US. The downside is, you have to live in the US.

No. Don't get me the wrong way. I wasn't trying to make a completely selfish argument. I was merely refuting the idea that *I* have something to lose by moving to the US vis-a-vis the social safety net -- as it seemed was being suggested.

I don't mind paying more. Even in the US, I'd pay more than people less well-off.

The question for me, has the cost-of-living here really grated at me sufficiently to drive me off? I think perhaps it has.
 
So we finally have a ton of Spring 2013 precon launches--King Blue, Art House, Casa 3, Noir, 2 High Park area projects, 155 Redpath and quite a number of other projects. It will be interesting to read the April 2013 sales tally mid-May.

Any updates on 155 Redpath sales? Conservative modernism it may be, but it's still one of the best-looking projects in the neighbourhood.

I disagree. It's another fantasy rendering of a project without approvals or even support of local councillor unless I'm mistaken. Trouble is a real end user has no assurances of what he's buying into with this kind of project. There are better options, and frankly more interesting designs, in the neighborhood that are shovel ready to go.
 
The people making like $150-$250k get a total kick in the pants. We don't qualify for ANY tax deductions for our kids, save for the new Child Arts Credit, and Sports Credit, which is really a drop in the bucket. I think if you're household income is above $91k, you're automatically disqualified from all the child/family tax credits.

Well, we get that stupid $100/month thing UCCB that Harper brought in.

But, when all is said and done, if you factor in sales taxes -- as I've said -- I give over 50% of my money to the government. It's obscene.

When people say: think of the social safety net I enjoy, I ask:what social safety net? In my income bracket, I'm clearly self-sufficient. When you do the breakdown, about 30% of all my tax dollars go to education. In terms of income taxes (not including sales taxes), that's about $35,000/year I'm giving to the public education system. That's an Appleby College tuition every year that I'm paying. According to the stats, the Ontario gov't puts $9,500/year into kids in public schools. I have one kid in school right now. Which means, I'm currently putting 2.5 other kids through school.

I'm hardly benefiting from the social safety net. The social safety net is benefiting from me. =)

I don't even want to do the calculation on how much of my salary goes into the health system every year. Because it's obscene. I'm sure that I'd rather be paying for the absolute best private insurance in the US, than what I'm paying into our public healthcare. Because a back of paper-napkin calculation makes it clear, that I'm personally putting in more money into healthcare every year than is the average household income in Canada. =)

Another way of looking at it is, I could buy a luxury sedan -- paid in full -- every year for what it costs to pay my "fair share" of healthcare in this country.


Brock I understand your situation and I also understand that you feel you are paying too much.
You are in the privileged minority who can afford to get the best health care (or maybe have the company pay it), put your child in the best school. However, this is spoken by someone at the top of the hill looking down at all the rest.

If everyone at the top had this attitude, there would be little or no social network to support those less privileged. As Hank said, in a progressive tax system, the more fortunate do in fact support those less well off.

One has to realize that there are many things that society provides that some/others don't use.

For e.g., public transit.....I virtually never use it but I pay for it in my taxes. My kids are grown up (last one finishing University now) but I pay for the public system even though I do not use it. I don't go to the public library, the hockey rinks, sport complexes that the city runs but I pay for it. I do all of this voluntarily. Frankly, I am happy to do it even though I definitely take out far less from the system than I put in. In my peak working years, I just said they should let me keep 5 years of income taxes and I would gladly have paid for school for my kids, my health care, would forgo CPP and OAS and everything else. That is not how a public support system works.

The one difference is that I always considered myself privileged to work in a profession I enjoyed, made a very good living by my standards, paid 50% in taxes and was happy. I don't like or approve of government waste and wish they were more efficient but I was always happy.

I knew others who went to the US because they were unhappy with what they made here and made 3x what they made on an after tax basis in the US and Brock, they still complained. I am not saying that will be you but just pointing out it is a mindset and I have heard people in the US who make in the $100's of $1000's complain about the taxes they pay in the US. They don't want to pay for medicare, public schools etc.

I am equally sure that if we ask most of the middle class if the rich should pay more, the answer will be yes....I guess it depends on where on the pyramid one sits on how one views the situation. Personally, I think you should be happy you are in such a privileged position (I am not saying it is unearned or undeserved) as most people would gladly switch to have "your problems".
 
And, particularly with health care, you just never know. For example, my parents paid for years into the "system" and required little in the way of health care. In the last two years of her life, however, my mother definitely got her money's worth, and was very appreciative of all that she was provided. Although she could have afforded private health care if necessary thanks to her savings, we often spoke about our health care system vs that in the U.S. where people are forced to mortgage their homes, go bankrupt, end up on welfare, etc. if faced with the kind of health care costs required for the level of care she received. Not everyone will get back what they put in, but lots do -- especially now that people are living longer and living with illness longer. And we were also thankful that all Canadians can benefit from what we pay in taxes -- lots of people use libraries because they can't afford their own computers, we all use the roads in one way or another and so on.
 
There is more to the Canadian tax system than health care costs. Many other countries have health care similar to Canada, but have less disparate tax burdens. And other's have more disparate tax burdens.

Ultimate, we live in an age of opportunistic citizenship. Many countries are only too eager to facilitate citizenship to high quality and/or wealthy immigrants, and Canada is at the front of the pack in that regard. But turnabout is fair play. If someone wants to leave Canada because its better for them elsewhere, then it would be somewhat churlish to criticize them for giving Canada a taste of its own medicine.

Certainly I'd agree that there are many more considerations that simply maximizing post-tax income.

For myself, I'm in a similar position to BrockM. In my 40's, strong 6-figure income. Work opportunities in the US, UK & Switzerland. And I'm eligible for UK citizenship. In the past I've been idealistic about Canada, but frankly I'm increasingly uncomfortable with the direction of the country during the Harper years. Besides which, frankly, Canada is boring.

Ultimately, whether I stay or go will be born out of the choice of what is best for me and my family. Such is life in the mobile 21st century.
 
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^^^
I think you hit the nail on the head.
In this mobile society we live in, people will go where it best suits their family or individual situation.
I think there are many more and I would suggest important considerations than maximizing post tax income.
Foremost I would look at: is this somewhere I want to live and raise my family. Because I'd rather do without
a fancier car or vacation and live where I want and that would be overriding for me. After all, except for vacation,
home is where one is most of the time and if one made a decision to go to a second choice living arrangement but with
far more money, I don't believe one would be happier.

That said, if one has a place where one is happy, and can have a better final income...then by all means "go for it". That
is really having the proverbial cake and eating it too.
 
And of course it's about more than health care. Cost of living in the UK is awful. If you work downtown in London, you either pay a fortune to live in the city or you have a long commute. And then there's weather. Friends of mine from the UK tell me Toronto has such a dry temperature ... Well, humidity is relative. And there is the way people think, such as the American right to bear arms and the more pervasive gun culture than we have here. All things considered, I pick Canada, but to each his own. There's no right and wrong, it's what's important for each person's needs and choices.
 
I agree. I'm in the early thirties and having an opportunity to travel plentiful for work, I'm constantly tempted to move myself and my wife to the U.S. The same income goes a lot further in the US, even in major cities like Chicago or LA.

Smaller cities like Minneapolis or Austin has really ben enticing my curiosity. Yes, it may involve living in a gated/exclusive neighbourhood and ignoring my social conscience on how the US treats its poor, but after a while, selfishness and pragmatism takes over idealism.

Back to the Housing market.

I've witnessed a semi in riverdale go for 1.25M (120k over) and a rundown bungalow (60*220ft) in Scarborough go for 660k (40k over).

Although the market seems to be cooling 'enmasse', there appears to still be a group of buyers willing to substantially 'over pay' for a home (pent up demand from the previous years).
 
I agree. I'm in the early thirties and having an opportunity to travel plentiful for work, I'm constantly tempted to move myself and my wife to the U.S. The same income goes a lot further in the US, even in major cities like Chicago or LA.

Smaller cities like Minneapolis or Austin has really ben enticing my curiosity. Yes, it may involve living in a gated/exclusive neighbourhood and ignoring my social conscience on how the US treats its poor, but after a while, selfishness and pragmatism takes over idealism.

Back to the Housing market.

I've witnessed a semi in riverdale go for 1.25M (120k over) and a rundown bungalow (60*220ft) in Scarborough go for 660k (40k over).

Although the market seems to be cooling 'enmasse', there appears to still be a group of buyers willing to substantially 'over pay' for a home (pent up demand from the previous years).

Yes. I think as the US slowly pulls itself out of the economic doldrums in the coming years, Canada will experience a second brain drain like it did in the late 90s, early 2000s. For a while, Canada has seemed to have had better prospects. But upwardly mobile people -- the smartest people -- eventually tire of being piggy banks for the national purse. These people, the people who willingly work 80 hours a week -- I count myself in this category -- to build things, to learn and to create success feel punished, not rewarded. Especially when we try to build a family.

This is the other dimension to it. I've already admitted I'm in the $150k-$250k income category. But here's the thing. I *do* put in 80 hours a week. And often, on weekends, I find myself heads down on my laptop trying to catch up on work. My job isn't a cushy 9-to-5 job. It requires that I give a lot of myself.

So when people say: "just be happy you have the problems you do, and pay your taxes", that doesn't sit well with me. Because I have people in my family and friends who'll say to me: "you know, you really have no work-life balance. Perhaps you should accept a lower income and get your stress down".

Think about that for a second.

I never finished university. But I have a high paying job. The job wasn't handed to me. I was born into a household, and grew up in a household that had a household income below the national median. My parents made just enough money to not qualify for OSAP, or afford to pay for university. I was, by all accounts, at a serious disadvantage. Except for the fact that I'm a white male -- which I acknowledge grants me privilege, and I don't deny that.

But here's the thing. I may be making a high income. But I haven't "made it". I'm still killing myself week after week. I have 20 days of Paid Time Off given to me every year with my employer. Just before I went on vacation before Christmas, I had accumulated 68 days of PTO. Do the math. =)

This isn't some pep talk about saying people should just work harder if they want to be like me. I don't think like that. What this is, is the cold harsh reality of where I've pulled myself up my the bootstraps, worked my ass off, continue to work my ass off, and all people can say is: well, you should be happy you are where you are. A lot of people would love to have your problems.

But that's not true. The counterfactual is that a lot of people would HATE to have my problems, even if it meant more money. Hence, family members and such trying to get me to accept a lower income for a more "work-life balance".

This is about sacrifice to support my family and secure their future. But it seems the harder I work, the more I'm working to secure the future sustainability of social programmes that, in many cases, I don't even support.

So here's what I did. Over the weekend I finally calculated a figure of what I believe I gave to the government in taxes. I included sales taxes by going through Mint.com (which is awesome by the way) subtracting groceries and children's items (to the best of my ability, since I don't pay sales taxes on those). I pay sales taxes on a lot of my bills -- like telephone, internet, cellular, etc -- so I factored that in, too.

This is not the *marginal* rate I pay. I paid an *average* income tax rate of 41.7%. BUT, when you consider the sales taxes I paid on the bills, services and goods from the year, the total amount of money I contributed to the public purse represented about 54.3% of my income. That's a majority of my income paid in taxes.

The problem with working hard in a progressive tax system to get ahead is that progressive taxation creates a feeling of diminishing returns. And for someone whose lost as much of his life to 80+ hour work weeks to get where he is, it starts feeling really unfair. When I hear people say that people who are in my privileged position should pay more, it makes me want to get violent.
 
This is not the *marginal* rate I pay. I paid an *average* income tax rate of 41.7%. BUT, when you consider the sales taxes I paid on the bills, services and goods from the year, the total amount of money I contributed to the public purse represented about 54.3% of my income.

That doesn't compute. GST is 13%, no? Wouldn't that mean that you spent 100% of your gross income on bills/services/goods?
 
Yes. I think as the US slowly pulls itself out of the economic doldrums in the coming years, Canada will experience a second brain drain like it did in the late 90s, early 2000s. For a while, Canada has seemed to have had better prospects. But upwardly mobile people -- the smartest people -- eventually tire of being piggy banks for the national purse. These people, the people who willingly work 80 hours a week -- I count myself in this category -- to build things, to learn and to create success feel punished, not rewarded. Especially when we try to build a family.

This is the other dimension to it. I've already admitted I'm in the $150k-$250k income category. But here's the thing. I *do* put in 80 hours a week. And often, on weekends, I find myself heads down on my laptop trying to catch up on work. My job isn't a cushy 9-to-5 job. It requires that I give a lot of myself.

So when people say: "just be happy you have the problems you do, and pay your taxes", that doesn't sit well with me. Because I have people in my family and friends who'll say to me: "you know, you really have no work-life balance. Perhaps you should accept a lower income and get your stress down".

Think about that for a second.

I never finished university. But I have a high paying job. The job wasn't handed to me. I was born into a household, and grew up in a household that had a household income below the national median. My parents made just enough money to not qualify for OSAP, or afford to pay for university. I was, by all accounts, at a serious disadvantage. Except for the fact that I'm a white male -- which I acknowledge grants me privilege, and I don't deny that.

But here's the thing. I may be making a high income. But I haven't "made it". I'm still killing myself week after week. I have 20 days of Paid Time Off given to me every year with my employer. Just before I went on vacation before Christmas, I had accumulated 68 days of PTO. Do the math. =)

This isn't some pep talk about saying people should just work harder if they want to be like me. I don't think like that. What this is, is the cold harsh reality of where I've pulled myself up my the bootstraps, worked my ass off, continue to work my ass off, and all people can say is: well, you should be happy you are where you are. A lot of people would love to have your problems.

But that's not true. The counterfactual is that a lot of people would HATE to have my problems, even if it meant more money. Hence, family members and such trying to get me to accept a lower income for a more "work-life balance".

This is about sacrifice to support my family and secure their future. But it seems the harder I work, the more I'm working to secure the future sustainability of social programmes that, in many cases, I don't even support.

So here's what I did. Over the weekend I finally calculated a figure of what I believe I gave to the government in taxes. I included sales taxes by going through Mint.com (which is awesome by the way) subtracting groceries and children's items (to the best of my ability, since I don't pay sales taxes on those). I pay sales taxes on a lot of my bills -- like telephone, internet, cellular, etc -- so I factored that in, too.

This is not the *marginal* rate I pay. I paid an *average* income tax rate of 41.7%. BUT, when you consider the sales taxes I paid on the bills, services and goods from the year, the total amount of money I contributed to the public purse represented about 54.3% of my income. That's a majority of my income paid in taxes.

The problem with working hard in a progressive tax system to get ahead is that progressive taxation creates a feeling of diminishing returns. And for someone whose lost as much of his life to 80+ hour work weeks to get where he is, it starts feeling really unfair. When I hear people say that people who are in my privileged position should pay more, it makes me want to get violent.

Should I be fearful brockm for suggesting you have a privileged position?
A few facts: I know of very few people who have $150 to $250K incomes who don't work 60+ hour weeks or more. In fact, I know lots of people who do that for $100K.
I admire your work ethic and your wanting to build a better life for your family. It is precisely I believe because you had to work so hard to get ahead that you are so motivated and willing to sacrifice your lifestyle for financial gain for you and your family. Without knowing your details and I am not asking for them, this country allowed you the opportunity granted while working very hard to make the top 1% of income. I get you feel you should keep more of it. However, this is the system and if you feel strongly enough that it does not meet your needs, then either work to change the system or you can move away.

At some point when you are older, if I could be so bold, you will look at time and money and decide perhaps not to make extra revenue. From personal experience, I remember declining to work for 30% premiums on weekends and 50% premiums overnight because the decision I made was to forgo the additonal revenue to have the time or lifestyle. In my 30-40's, the reverse decision was made.
The other side to this however is this country allows you the opportunity to work hard and be well rewarded. Last I saw, $200K/year in 2010 was the top 1% of the population.
You have made certain choices which others may not agree with or feel it is worth the sacrifices you have clearly made.

So may I ask a question...what would your solution be....a flat tax? I am not saying this is right or wrong, just asking?

1 final comment... I loved my job and worked 80+ hour weeks for decades. And Brockm, given the opportunity to do it again the same way, I would do exactly the same thing. In fact, I would have worked for 1/2 the money....but I was very fortunate to have a job which I loved and would have probably worked for free but I do appreciate this was very fortunate. That said, perhaps it explains why I do not mind the progressive tax system. I just wish governments would use the money more wisely.
 

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