[Mike in TO]

As to the argument about cost. Most analysts agree that LEED certification only adds between 1.5% - 3% to the cost of building a certified building:

None of our major developers from Ontario are listed on there. And if you have a look at board listings for the CaGBC there are several major developers again who are not participating. I think mandating their participation is necessary if they aren't going to do it voluntarily.

I agree in general with many of you points - two items I'll mention...

Re: costs - it depends on what level of LEED certification - that 1.5% to 3% of the cost you suggested is just what the additional paperwork can cost alone which is one reason why LEED hasn't really taken off in Canada yet (The few LEED platinum homes built in Ontario today have massive premiums in the 30% of costs range). Another reason is that up to 3 weeks ago it was an American program with American standards that were imported to Canada through various pilot programs - the Canadian program was only just rolled out.

Second item you mentioned was lack of LEED participation - there is a variety of reasons for this related to costs and excessive paperwork and the fact that provincially on the low-rise side of the equation it was an American standard and they've just completed putting together the Canadian program. There are also some liability concerns within the building community related to LEED and there is a general preference towards other programs.

There are a lot of builders voluntarily participating in other programs. EnergyStar has exploded the past couple years from virtually nothing the about 5,000 homes last year. Many major builders such as Mattamy only build EnergyStar Homes - they won't offer homes built to the OBC. GreenHouse is a new program just launched last fall and it may take a little while to take off due to current market conditions.

I think here in Toronto we focus too much on LEED since it's the only game in town for high-rise and the ICI sector, the low-rise sector has a range of programs that various builders are participating in.

 

[kEiThZ]

Mike,

Check out the link I posted (page 7 - cost of LEED PDF). It included more than certification costs. All costs incurred ranged from 1.5-3.1%. Again, I never advocated for LEED Platinum (which of course, would cost 30% more). I suggested either LEED certified (26-32 points) or LEED Silver (33-38) points as the minimum standard. They add very little in the way of costs. This is not so bad a standard when there are many cities around the world now imposing LEED Gold (39-51 points) as minimum.

The problem I have with Energystar and Greenhouse is that they don't take into account things like sustainable sites and innovation and design processes. They are simply more energy efficient building codes. That's a good thing but I'd prefer a more encompassing standard.

 

[Mike in TO]

Mike,

Check out the link I posted (page 7 - cost of LEED PDF). It included more than certification costs. All costs incurred ranged from 1.5-3.1%. Again, I never advocated for LEED Platinum (which of course, would cost 30% more). I suggested either LEED certified (26-32 points) or LEED Silver (33-38) points as the minimum standard. They add very little in the way of costs. This is not so bad a standard when there are many cities around the world now imposing LEED Gold (39-51 points) as minimum.

The problem I have with Energystar and Greenhouse is that they don't take into account things like sustainable sites and innovation and design processes. They are simply more energy efficient building codes. That's a good thing but I'd prefer a more encompassing standard.

The province should be dictating building code policies, not individual municipalities (we don't need 400 codes in Ontario - Toronto doesn't have the power to superceded the building code, but Miller is trying to get around that through the site plan process). Building codes are perscriptive, whereas LEED is based on a point system. Future OBC changes could take elements within the LEED structure, but a point based code system won't work effectively for a mandatory standard across Ontario.

Sustainable sites are a fantastic component within a voluntary LEED process... but that can't be incorporated within a building code that has a primary objective of structural integrity and safety.

Lastly your 1.5% - 3.1% cost estimate is only the soft costs (with documentation and fees being up to and over 1%)... which is why LEED isn't as popular as it could be - that doesn't actually take into account any of the hard construction costs and the bills are already escalating. LEED is a good program, but it isn't cheap - administration costs alone are significant.

The next round of OBC technical committees are commencing in late 2009 and 2010. They will definitely be looking for opportunities to move the bar forward, but there is a lot of give and take when there are many competing objectives and costs/affordability is always a consideration.

 

[kEiThZ]

Mike.

Did you see the link I posted? It worked out the costs for far more than documentation. Do you feel that the estimate in that link and their analysis was flawed? I have heard elsewhere that achieving LEED adds only about 5% to the total cost for achieving basic LEED certification (not silver, gold or platinum) and that apparently includes all costs (not just documentation). I am curious to see why you think the analysis is flawed here. I doubt LEED would have been as successful as it was if every building needed a lot more than 5% to get certified (making for a much longer payback period).

I don't see the danger of 400 different codes being implemented. LEED is one standard that is over and above the OBC. The OBC should specifiy safety issues while LEED lays out other issues including energy efficiency, water use, sustainable sites, etc. Note that I never suggested that the OBC be substituted by LEED. Both can and do co-exist. And if legislated, the OBC would obviously take precedence over any safety/structural issues.

Either way, I think this is the way of the future. Increasingly, government and corporate buildings are being built to this standard. And should Miller succeed in his effort, we will have a huge constituency for LEED standard construction.

Coming back to the topic at hand. I don't know how the energy audits will achieve much without some kind of program to help homeowner improve their home's efficiency.

 

[Mike in TO]

I think the next round of OBC updates/negotiations will include more elements from the LEED programs (and various other green programs) – but not on a point based or sliding scale system – there will be specific ‘R-value’ increases to insulation and that that type of prescriptive items that the code utilizes and maybe the EnerGuide 80 target performance level will be increased. I'm not sure how far Miller is going to get with his green Toronto standards as he's circumventing aspects of the planning/development process - currently his model is 'voluntary', but it's used as a tool to expedite approvals, which isn’t the proper way to handle the process and the city uses its process as leverage to obtain various concessions. Currently municipalities, including Toronto don’t have the power to supersede the building code.

re: costs - while 5% of basic certification may not sound like a lot, every penny adds up when provincial and municipal regulations, taxes, fees etc are generally all going up and asking for a slice of the pie claiming it's 1% here a few thousand there and it’s ‘no big deal’ because that specific issue or cost is deemed to be 'important' (which I'm sure they all are, but there are a lot of competing interests at play)…. Silver, Gold and Platinum are all fairly onerous to achieve, whereas the jump for OBC minimums to basic certification isn't a huge leap depending on site specific characteristics as many points can essentially be 'freebies' like transit nearby, putting in a few bike racks, having an autoshare on site, being in a walkable community etc... once the low hanging fruit is gone the points get more difficult/costly to obtain.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think the next round of OBC updates/negotiations will include more elements from the LEED programs (and various other green programs) – but not on a point based or sliding scale system – there will be specific ‘R-value’ increases to insulation and that that type of prescriptive items that the code utilizes and maybe the EnerGuide 80 target performance level will be increased.

Higher standards are a good thing for sure. However, I still don't think that should preclude any municipality from proposing even higher standards than those proscribed in the OBC or from proposing better construction management practices or better planned development.

I'm not sure how far Miller is going to get with his green Toronto standards as he's circumventing aspects of the planning/development process - currently his model is 'voluntary', but it's used as a tool to expedite approvals, which isn’t the proper way to handle the process and the city uses its process as leverage to obtain various concessions. Currently municipalities, including Toronto don’t have the power to supersede the building code.

I don't why it's a big deal for the city to impose higher building standards over and above the OBC. As long as safety is not compromised the only issue is cost. That cost would ultimately be passed on to the customer. If the city wants to take the risk of driving costruction costs up to the point where development moves away, that should be their decision not the provinces to impose.

On a broader note, I may not be a big fan of Miller but at least this might accomplish more than adding labels to the side of houses as McGuinty is proposing.

 

[kEiThZ]

To those who say it can't be done:

http://www.mintomidtown.com/about/green.htm

http://www.minto.com/newcondos/default.asp

Minto is achieving LEED Silver and above on several of its projects. I think it's time to make LEED certified a minimum standard, at least inside the 416.

EDIT: Click 'See How' on the linked page for details.

 

[Mike in TO]

Tridel is also committed to having all their new condo projects LEED silver at a minimum.

 

[jimbobs]

I just can't stand it how Canadians let their government(s) interfere in their lives. If I want to keep my old windows and run the heat all day, that's my business, I'll pay for the service. Government works for us, not the other way round.

Common good, etc. Rights of the majority trump the rights of the individual, etc.

If there was a good program behind the test and the rating, it would be a good selling point and any serious seller would want to promote it and buyers would also ask for it. The problem is that the program is incomplete, very restrictive and optimized for screwing homeowners.

The first time I had the test done, the inspector bitched and moaned about the program and the company he worked for. He gave me the report and I did absolutely everything he suggested. When the inspector (a different guy) came for the follow-up, he wanted to know what I had done, asked to see receipts etc., then declared that there was no improvement because the program software had been changed by the federal government.