[ACT7]

See regarding intentional tourism ... I always wonder if this figure includes relatives visiting families ... I'm sure Toronto has more of this then just about anywhere in North America.

But in terms of spending, maybe due to the above its very low (i.e. relatives spend very little in comparison with those on vacation / to a certain degree business).


Regarding the high end hotels, do keep in mind there were essentially 0 high end hotels prior to this, so yes there was pent up demand but even with all the development, it probably doesn't put us close to Chicago in terms of the # of high end hotel rooms in the core.

Overnight figures include hotel stays AND VFR.

I don't think the numbers are that far off to be honest. If you can provide some stats on that, that would be appreciated. Regardless, the argument here isn't whether or not Chicago has more, it's the comments that Toronto doesn't have the market to support luxury retail, which is completely wrong in my opinion. Canada, in general, is just late to the game.

 

[pw20]

Overnight figures include hotel stays AND VFR.

I don't think the numbers are that far off to be honest. If you can provide some stats on that, that would be appreciated. Regardless, the argument here isn't whether or not Chicago has more, it's the comments that Toronto doesn't have the market to support luxury retail, which is completely wrong in my opinion. Canada, in general, is just late to the game.

Let me respond to your post after I posted this morning:
"That's very misleading, what you just wrote. Toronto receives more international tourists than Chicago. Chicago's tourism is almost exclusively domestic. And Montreal's is almost exclusively from other parts of Quebec, so those comparisons are not accurate. Also, you're comparing Chicago's TOTAL tourism to Toronto's overnight tourism. Overall, including same day, Toronto receives closer to 20 million tourists."

Cool - so let's dive into overnight visitors:
Toronto: Toronto welcomed 6.4 million overnight visitors from Canada, 2.0 million from the U.S., and 1.4 million from overseas. (tourism Toronto)
Total Overnight visitors to Toronto: 9.8M
Chicago: A record 23.07 million overnight business and leisure travelers - an increase of 11.3% over 2010. (Tourism Chicago)
So that would be more than double toronto's overnight tourists.
As per international tourists - according to this article Chicago received 1.1M tourists from overseas
A bit more context:
Montreal:
Québec: 4 080 300
Rest of Canada: 1 509 100
United States: 959 200
Overseas: 830 100

While proportionally Chicago's overseas tourists are below Toronto's their raw numbers are actually rather similar. What does this say when it comes to high-end retail? Who knows really - but you're argument was that "Toronto is a significant international tourism destination and therefore should be a retail mecca" doesn't really compute in my mind. There is some correlation, just not sure international, overnight, tourism statistics imply causation.

Boston, has similar amounts of international tourists and has always had a much larger high-end retail presence (Boston is considerably smaller than Toronto - even its the greater boston/cambridge area is smaller than the GTA and has a much larger high-end retail presence). FYI - Boston's has 1.3M international tourists.

Again - I would go back to discretionary income. You've said before that income's in the Greater Toronto Area are higher than Chicagoland. According to Forbes - Chicagoland Median Income is $58,000 (http://www.forbes.com/places/il/chicago/)

According to statistics Canada the media household income in the GTA was: 68,000

At face value you're right - Chicago is a "poorer" city. But... Those area also GROSS (pre-tax) figures. Canadians are taxed significantly more than our American counterparts. This means that net... Chicagoans are ahead of the ball. We're also looking at the median - we don't know what the variation of it is.

Also what caught my eye in that Forbes article was median house price - Chicago's is $175k. Toronto's: almost $400,000. Ya know what you can do with a lot of $275K difference? Buy a lot of Longchamp purses. (I know... Healthcare right? It's all Louis Vuitton until you have to get chemo).

You've also mentioned billionaire's as an example that Chicago is just as wealthy as Toronto. While that's a random stat to compare - again, there are more billionaire's in the Chicagoland region than Toronto. According to Toronto Life - Toronto has 8. Chicago has 16. While its circumstantial I think it would support my argument that in general there are more clusters of people earning higher salaries than there are in Canada (see the occupy movement).

Also - I don't think tit for tat - Toronto has 3 Burberry stores (I'm not sure the Bay counts), so does Chicago, we deserve high-end retail too is a really good argument to make. There are variances to each local market - e.g. Boston - has four burberry locations! Sometimes protestant wasps just like their Burberry check vis-a-vis wholesome mid-westernerners.

I agree with you that high-end retail in Toronto is undergoing a growth period - however, I really don't think there will ever be the same luxury retail market in Toronto as there is in the United States. The long-term discrepancy's in our discretionary spending as well as structural differences in our economies will probably always render Toronto slightly under-served when it comes to retail (at least compared to our American cousins).

A demain.

 

[Retail-Insider]

I debate those 6 "high-end" department stores in Chicago. First of all, Saks Fifth Avenue has two separate stores for Men's and Women's merchandise, and so I don't think this qualifies as two separate department stores. The Nordstrom and Bloomingdale's stores sort of run the gamut of mid-high end, and I don't think it would be wrong to compare them to The Bay Queen Street. Barney's is nice (albeit small) but Neiman's is very dated and likewise, small. Also, let's not forget that there are many more American department stores than there are Canadian, and it is only recently that the high-end American department stores have been penetrating the Canadian market.
I think it is important to note that Toronto 's luxury market is growing at unprecedented rates- the amount of new luxury hotels being built, as ACT7 pointed out, is an indication of this. The amount of international luxury brands that have announced openings in Toronto is also an indication of this. The reason why we aren't seeing as many new stores in Yorkville is simply due to lack of space in the neighbourhood, given the number of luxury stores that have opened or will be opening in Yorkdale, certainly not due to lack of interest by the brands themselves, or hunger for luxury goods by consumers (whether they be domestic or foreign).

Saks' Chicago men's store will be closing while men's moves to levels 6 & 7 of the main store, and Neiman's 188,000 square foot Michigan Ave store is being renovated top-to-bottom (just to update - we spend a lot of time in Chicago). It's our opinion that Toronto is very underserved with high-end retail and that this should change when the 'right' space presents and the 'right' retailers (corporate or franchises) step up to the plate. There is no question that Chicago has considerably more high end stores than Toronto as well as a wider selection of higher-end multi-brand stores (90K sq ft Barney's, 190K sq ft Saks, 188K sq ft Neiman's) not to mention a flagship Nordstrom with a substantial 'Collectors' women's designer department and a Vuitton shop, and a Macy's (State Street) that includes women's '28 Shop' (a less-innovative version of Hudson's Bay's 'The Room') and vendors like Thomas Pink and Links of London.

Holt's on Bloor is about 185K sq ft including the awkward positioning of its storage, personal shopping suites and spillover into the adjacent 60 Bloor Street W. office tower.

We did a quick 'count' of 'luxury' retailers in each city's central core and we came out with 53 for Chicago and 25 for Toronto. If any readers would like, we'll gladly privately share this research. Interestingly, Vancouver came out at 24 and will soon be at 26 or 27.

 

[ACT7]

So my tourism comment was in response to vatche's comments regarding the fact that Toronto simply doesn't receive the high end tourism that other cities have. I agree with you to the extent that high overseas tourism does not equal luxury retail growth per-se, but anecdotally, it seems like where the Asian, Brazilian, Middle Eastern, and Brazilian tourism is high, so too is the luxury retail spending. Chicago doesn't seem to report the breakdowns that Toronto does, but Chinese tourism to Toronto is higher than Chicago.

I don't think you can look at average house price and say that on average Chicagoans have an extra $275K to spend. A large part of the reason that house prices are so depressed in Chicago and other U.S. cities is because of their lousy economies and people's inability to afford higher prices.

My argument regarding the Burberry and Cartier stores was to make an absurd point. The fact that there are 3 or 4 or 5 stores in one city vs another may not be a reflection of said city's ability to support more stores than the other. I was pointing out that the logic behind that argument was flawed.

Lastly, and I'll say it again, there is a pervasive self-loathing that goes on, on these threads that Toronto can't support the luxury retail that we would like to see here. And that's where I disagree. Has it been a slow grind compared to U.S. cities? Absolutely. But I already said that before. We're late to the game but not out of it.

By the way, as we speak, a free standing Rolex store is being built in the Rolex building on St. Clair Ave (as was posted on UT in the 'Non-mall Retail' thread). That would make it only the second true free standing Rolex store in North America and only a handful in the world.

 

[pw20]

I dont think systemic differences in economies (ie tax rates, house prices and costs of business differences) are examples of "pervasive self loathing". Not to belabor a point but I can also look at saving rates and disposable income between Canadians and Americans and you'll find that this greatly impacts How much we can sped on luxury goods.

on top of that the basket of goods is more expensive in canada versus the united states. We can agree to disagree but not to be a jerk but you haven't really pulled showed a statistic to prove your point.

As for house prices I can probably pull information from other cities and you'll find that per capita Canadians spend more on housing than Americans.

Thanks retail insider for pulling that information.

 

[vatche]

ACT7, what I'm doing is not self loathing at all. On the contrary I love Toronto and I want the city to do very well, however it's depressing when I go to Chicago or or other cities and see all these free standing boutiques opening up and I feel like IN COMPARISON not much is happening in Toronto. The stores we are getting now other cities have had for ages. We are only catching up. And I honestly believe that the international tourists that we get are the families of the immigrant population in Toronto. Uncles, cousins and so forth. They're not the rich Europeans, latin americans or Asians who are coming to spend a weekend in our Fair city. You see it as you walk around the streets of new York, but not Toronto. Having said that, does Chicago get them?? in my opinion I think more so than Toronto. I lived in Chicago for 5 years and I saw it. And yes there is money in Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana, ohio and Illinois. More so that Ontario. More people too. Those stores are opening up in Chicago because they do well. Tom ford, leboutin, lanvin and YSL are setting up shop there in the near future. These are major stores. If I were rich, I'd shop in the states as well. I'm not talking buffalo by the way!!!! Much less tax. When I was at the Gucci store in Chicago, the salesperson said we get a lot of Canadians.
I don't have statistics or numbers. These are mere observations.

 

[ACT7]

ACT7, what I'm doing is not self loathing at all. On the contrary I love Toronto and I want the city to do very well, however it's depressing when I go to Chicago or or other cities and see all these free standing boutiques opening up and I feel like IN COMPARISON not much is happening in Toronto. The stores we are getting now other cities have had for ages. We are only catching up. And I honestly believe that the international tourists that we get are the families of the immigrant population in Toronto. Uncles, cousins and so forth. They're not the rich Europeans, latin americans or Asians who are coming to spend a weekend in our Fair city. You see it as you walk around the streets of new York, but not Toronto. Having said that, does Chicago get them?? in my opinion I think more so than Toronto. I lived in Chicago for 5 years and I saw it. And yes there is money in Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana, ohio and Illinois. More so that Ontario. More people too. Those stores are opening up in Chicago because they do well. Tom ford, leboutin, lanvin and YSL are setting up shop there in the near future. These are major stores. If I were rich, I'd shop in the states as well. I'm not talking buffalo by the way!!!! Much less tax. When I was at the Gucci store in Chicago, the salesperson said we get a lot of Canadians.
I don't have statistics or numbers. These are mere observations.

ACT7, what I'm doing is not self loathing at all. On the contrary I love Toronto and I want the city to do very well, however it's depressing when I go to Chicago or or other cities and see all these free standing boutiques opening up and I feel like IN COMPARISON not much is happening in Toronto. The stores we are getting now other cities have had for ages. We are only catching up. And I honestly believe that the international tourists that we get are the families of the immigrant population in Toronto. Uncles, cousins and so forth. They're not the rich Europeans, latin americans or Asians who are coming to spend a weekend in our Fair city. You see it as you walk around the streets of new York, but not Toronto. Having said that, does Chicago get them?? in my opinion I think more so than Toronto. I lived in Chicago for 5 years and I saw it. And yes there is money in Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana, ohio and Illinois. More so that Ontario. More people too. Those stores are opening up in Chicago because they do well. Tom ford, leboutin, lanvin and YSL are setting up shop there in the near future. These are major stores. If I were rich, I'd shop in the states as well. I'm not talking buffalo by the way!!!! Much less tax. When I was at the Gucci store in Chicago, the salesperson said we get a lot of Canadians.
I don't have statistics or numbers. These are mere observations.

Sorry, vatche, I think you are completely wrong there.
First of all let me address the population references you keep making.
Population of Illinois: 12,875,255 as of July 2012
Population of Michigan: 9,883,360 as of July 2012
Population of Ohio: 11,544,225 as of July 2012
Population of Wisconsin: 5,726,398 as of July 2012

https://www.google.ca/publicdata/ex...te:17000&dl=en&hl=en&q=population of illinois

Population of Ontario: 13,505,900 as of July 2012 http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/ecupdates/factsheet.html

You keep throwing around random numbers that don't make a lot of sense so here's a comparison of income levels between each city too:

Chicago: $47,371
Average retail sales per capita: $7,059

Detroit: $27,862
Average retail sales per capita: $3,567 (as of 2007 but even probably lower now)
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/2622000.html

Milwaukee: $35,851
Average retail sales per capita: $6,640
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/55/5553000.html

Cleveland: $16,665
Average retail sales per capita: $5,246

Toronto:$68,110
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm
Average retail sales per capita (Ontario is all I could find): $11,846
http://www.collierscanada.com/~/med...ada_Retail_Real_Estate_Report_Spring2012.ashx

There is no way to prove which city is receiving higher end tourism but your anecdotal references to being in a store in a Chicago is not real data. A quick glance shows that Toronto receives more tourism from China than Chicago. This is one example only as Chicago doesn't seem to breakdown but neither you nor I can tell from this who receives higher end tourism, but I find it difficult to believe that almost all of Toronto's tourism is VFR whereas everywhere else, according to you, the tourism is much higher end. My observations are completely different - walk down Bloor on a Saturday or Sunday and you see nothing but people walking around with Hermes, Prada, Gucci, and LV bags.

http://www.seetorontonow.com/getatt...-bd70-1cade4b04bce/Overseas-Visitors.pdf.aspx

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/08/17/toronto-tourism.html

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/arti...g-expensive-labels-boost-chicago-retail-sales

I think I can only repeat this one more time before this becomes a circular discussion. Toronto's luxury retail landscape IS changing very rapidly but the space does not exist in the same way that it does in U.S. cities. To say that the city can't support the amount of luxury retail that say Chicago does is completely flawed in my opinion. And you keep referencing NYC, to which I've said, tourism in NY is not necessarily at the expense of Toronto per-se.

Lastly, you're saying that the stores we're getting now, other cities have had for ages - true, because A LOT of them are American stores. But I say again, where is Chicago's D&G, Mulberry, and Porsche Design to name a few? Does it mean that it will never get those stores? Not necessarily. Can it support them? Probably. Dior is likely setting up in Toronto in the not too distant future. Does Chicago have one? Not the last time I checked. You want things to change overnight.

Other than your casual observations, it would be nice if every now and then you had some stats to back up your claims - and I mean that in the nicest way

 

[gabe]

Saks' Chicago men's store will be closing while men's moves to levels 6 & 7 of the main store, and Neiman's 188,000 square foot Michigan Ave store is being renovated top-to-bottom (just to update - we spend a lot of time in Chicago). It's our opinion that Toronto is very underserved with high-end retail and that this should change when the 'right' space presents and the 'right' retailers (corporate or franchises) step up to the plate. There is no question that Chicago has considerably more high end stores than Toronto as well as a wider selection of higher-end multi-brand stores (90K sq ft Barney's, 190K sq ft Saks, 188K sq ft Neiman's) not to mention a flagship Nordstrom with a substantial 'Collectors' women's designer department and a Vuitton shop, and a Macy's (State Street) that includes women's '28 Shop' (a less-innovative version of Hudson's Bay's 'The Room') and vendors like Thomas Pink and Links of London.

Holt's on Bloor is about 185K sq ft including the awkward positioning of its storage, personal shopping suites and spillover into the adjacent 60 Bloor Street W. office tower.

We did a quick 'count' of 'luxury' retailers in each city's central core and we came out with 53 for Chicago and 25 for Toronto. If any readers would like, we'll gladly privately share this research. Interestingly, Vancouver came out at 24 and will soon be at 26 or 27.

Ah thanks for the info! I'm a huge fan of Neiman's and i visit Chicago at least once a year.

Mods can the last few pages be moved to the Toronto/Chicago comparisons thread?

 

[pw20]

Sorry, vatche, I think you are completely wrong there.
First of all let me address the population references you keep making.
Population of Illinois: 12,875,255 as of July 2012
Population of Michigan: 9,883,360 as of July 2012
Population of Ohio: 11,544,225 as of July 2012
Population of Wisconsin: 5,726,398 as of July 2012

https://www.google.ca/publicdata/ex...te:17000&dl=en&hl=en&q=population of illinois

Population of Ontario: 13,505,900 as of July 2012 http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/ecupdates/factsheet.html

You keep throwing around random numbers that don't make a lot of sense so here's a comparison of income levels between each city too:

Chicago: $47,371
Average retail sales per capita: $7,059

Detroit: $27,862
Average retail sales per capita: $3,567 (as of 2007 but even probably lower now)
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/2622000.html

Milwaukee: $35,851
Average retail sales per capita: $6,640
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/55/5553000.html

Cleveland: $16,665
Average retail sales per capita: $5,246

Toronto:$68,110
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm
Average retail sales per capita (Ontario is all I could find): $11,846
http://www.collierscanada.com/~/med...ada_Retail_Real_Estate_Report_Spring2012.ashx

There is no way to prove which city is receiving higher end tourism but your anecdotal references to being in a store in a Chicago is not real data. A quick glance shows that Toronto receives more tourism from China than Chicago. This is one example only as Chicago doesn't seem to breakdown but neither you nor I can tell from this who receives higher end tourism, but I find it difficult to believe that almost all of Toronto's tourism is VFR whereas everywhere else, according to you, the tourism is much higher end. My observations are completely different - walk down Bloor on a Saturday or Sunday and you see nothing but people walking around with Hermes, Prada, Gucci, and LV bags.

http://www.seetorontonow.com/getatt...-bd70-1cade4b04bce/Overseas-Visitors.pdf.aspx

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/08/17/toronto-tourism.html

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/arti...g-expensive-labels-boost-chicago-retail-sales

I think I can only repeat this one more time before this becomes a circular discussion. Toronto's luxury retail landscape IS changing very rapidly but the space does not exist in the same way that it does in U.S. cities. To say that the city can't support the amount of luxury retail that say Chicago does is completely flawed in my opinion. And you keep referencing NYC, to which I've said, tourism in NY is not necessarily at the expense of Toronto per-se.

Lastly, you're saying that the stores we're getting now, other cities have had for ages - true, because A LOT of them are American stores. But I say again, where is Chicago's D&G, Mulberry, and Porsche Design to name a few? Does it mean that it will never get those stores? Not necessarily. Can it support them? Probably. Dior is likely setting up in Toronto in the not too distant future. Does Chicago have one? Not the last time I checked. You want things to change overnight.

Other than your casual observations, it would be nice if every now and then you had some stats to back up your claims - and I mean that in the nicest way

Your income information is different than the information I've quoted on the previous page - if you're using the GTA - you should be using Chicagoland, which is much closer to the GTA's.

And again, GROSS INCOME, doesn't take into account taxation and or other cost of living costs. Housing costs are MUCH lower in the US compared to Canada. Even in cities that aren't economically depressed (like Detroit). Boston's media house price is much lower than Toronto's even though its media income is the same. http://www.forbes.com/places/ma/boston/

Again - there are significant differences between the cost of living in Canada and the United States and these have major implications on discretionary spending capabilities. Also those in the top 1% in the US earn significantly more than their Canadian counterparts - remember the whole 1% versus 99% issue. Look at what the average partner at a Chicago law firm makes compared to a Canadian law firm... the differential is significant. Combine higher incomes for the top tier of society, with lower housing costs and there's just more discretionary money to be spent on luxury goods.

This isn't saying Toronto is shit. This is looking at MAJOR differences in our two countries.

 

[Student99]

ugh... can't we have a thread that is JUST about retail news for Bloor-Yorkville?

Everytime I see an update to this thread I expect to hear word of something new moving in.
Half the time, it's just vatche or someone else with postulations like:
"OMG guyz wouldn't it be awesome if sdfdfs moved onto bloor?!?!?! I visited one in paris once!"

 

[vatche]

Lol student.

Not much activity is going on, so we keep the thread active by making these comments.

 

[khris]

Ah thanks for the info! I'm a huge fan of Neiman's and i visit Chicago at least once a year.

Mods can the last few pages be moved to the Toronto/Chicago comparisons thread?

Mods aren't always reading every thread. The best thing to do is report a post that you think should be moved, and make a note in your report. This will alert mods.

 

[prosperegal]

Does anyone know who is moving into 113 Yorkville? It used to be Bacco.

 

[ACT7]

Your income information is different than the information I've quoted on the previous page - if you're using the GTA - you should be using Chicagoland, which is much closer to the GTA's.

Um, if you clicked on the links you would see it is the CITY of Toronto. So let me understand your math. Chicago has a lower median income, with possibly marginally lower taxes, but would somehow end up with higher after-tax income than Toronto, which starts with a higher gross income number by $20,000??? Interesting math.

And as I've mentioned before, your math regarding average house prices is flawed. Just because average house prices in Chicago are a few hundred thousand dollars lower than Toronto's doesn't leave Chicagoans with that amount more money to spend. That's a completely illogical argument. Does that mean people in Winnipeg have $300K more dollars to spend than Torontonians too??? Why doesn't Winnipeg have store upon store of luxury retail.

At any rate, we will definitely have to agree to disagree about some very obvious statistics.

Don't know who's moving into 113 Yorkville

 

[pw20]

Um, if you clicked on the links you would see it is the CITY of Toronto. So let me understand your math. Chicago has a lower median income, with possibly marginally lower taxes, but would somehow end up with higher after-tax income than Toronto, which starts with a higher gross income number by $20,000??? Interesting math.

And as I've mentioned before, your math regarding average house prices is flawed. Just because average house prices in Chicago are a few hundred thousand dollars lower than Toronto's doesn't leave Chicagoans with that amount more money to spend. That's a completely illogical argument. Does that mean people in Winnipeg have $300K more dollars to spend than Torontonians too??? Why doesn't Winnipeg have store upon store of luxury retail.

At any rate, we will definitely have to agree to disagree about some very obvious statistics.

Don't know who's moving into 113 Yorkville

Except I've continued to use Chicagoland income ($57,000) versus Greater Toronto Median Income (of which there is only a $10,000 disparity). And after tax - with a $10,000 lower median salary - most Chicagoland residents would have a higher net income than GTA households. And low housing cost jokes aside - housing is most people's number one cost of living. So cheap housing would have a significant impact on disposable spending.

And... the real statistic that you can't seem to grapple - is disposable income.

Disposable income in Canada (according to OECD) is $27,000 (source: http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/income/)
It's $37,000 in the United States...

That's a HUGE difference.

As Canadians spend more, (which you can see on page three of the colliers report I linked to earlier), they are doing, and as they save less (traditionally Canadians have saved more than Americans although this is changing), luxury retail in Canada will continue to grow. That being said - until our disposable incomes become more aligned I do not think Toronto's luxury retail market will not match our US counterparts.

To me that's a fact.

If you want to actually provide any statistics ACT7 that would pinpoint otherwise - happy to read them.