[syn]

Wow. Ricciardi just gave Rios away for nothing. How was he even hired?

 

[jn_12]

He essentially gave him up for $60million. In a perfect world they'd just reinvest that in a better 1st or 3rd baseman and a DH, but I'm starting to wonder if the term "financial flexibility" is just corporate speak for a slashed payroll for next season.

An outfield of Lind, Snider and Wells isn't bad. They lose some range, but Snider should have a higher ceiling than Rios ever did.


I don't think Ricciardi will be around after this season. He's going to go to Rogers at the end of the year, ask for an extension, they'll turn him down, and he'll step down. They would never allow a GM to go into his final season not knowing his future. It's suicide for the team to allow that. My guess is Alex Anthopoulos takes over.

 

[Translude15]

They are below .500 overall in his tenure. This year they will likely finish below .500, the 4th time in 8 seasons. They barely finished above .500 in 2007.

And I'd love to know which seasons they had a legitimate chance at the Wild Card, because they've never been even remotely close in the Ricciardi era.



You're buying what he's selling.




And all of them come back to one man - Ricciardi. He is one of the worst GMs in the game. In 8 years he managed to make the farm system worse and hasn't accomplished anything he claimed he would when he arrived. As the GM, he is responsible for the team and analyzing players. He's the one who chose to hand out contracts to players who weren't worth it (Burnett, Ryan, etc.) and he's the one responsible for the $40 million - $50 million in contracts the team/Rogers has had to swallow because he decided to let them go or pay them to play for other teams.

He simply has to go.

Syn, I predict this team to finish strong and remain over .500 at seasons end. If you can recall, the Jays had hot Septembers in 06' and last year as well, and were right up there in the race for the Wild Card. Take last year for instance, after winning 11 of 12 games towards the end of the season, they were in prime position to grab the WC lead off of Boston, yet lost 3 of 4 games at Fenway. They ended up losing 9 of their last 16 games. They just choked. Not really the fault of the GM.

What do you mean BJ and Burnett weren't worth the money? BJ was a stud closer in 06' and just got injured in 07' due to overuse via Gibbons. He will never be the same after that Tommy John, and it really is unfortunate, but that's baseball. AJ had 2 injury plagued years here, but look what he did last year and look at him this year in NY. The guy CHOSE to ditch Toronto after last year. He wanted more money, and he got it. Sadly we got the short end of the stick, but hey, that's baseball. MLB really needs to work on some sort of salary cap.

 

[syn]

Syn, I predict this team to finish strong and remain over .500 at seasons end. If you can recall, the Jays had hot Septembers in 06' and last year as well, and were right up there in the race for the Wild Card.

Take last year for instance, after winning 11 of 12 games towards the end of the season, they were in prime position to grab the WC lead off of Boston, yet lost 3 of 4 games at Fenway. They ended up losing 9 of their last 16 games. They just choked. Not really the fault of the GM.

Perhaps you were watching the Red Sox or Yankees.

In 2006 the Jays finished 8 games back in the Wild Card race. They were never in the race.

Last year they weren't in the race either. They finished 9 games back. The only reason people were excited is because they mathematically weren't out of it by September...but that isn't saying much. They had to win practically every game while the teams ahead of them had to lose the majority of theirs. In reality, they weren't in the race at all.

What do you mean BJ and Burnett weren't worth the money? BJ was a stud closer in 06' and just got injured in 07' due to overuse via Gibbons. He will never be the same after that Tommy John, and it really is unfortunate, but that's baseball. AJ had 2 injury plagued years here, but look what he did last year and look at him this year in NY. The guy CHOSE to ditch Toronto after last year. He wanted more money, and he got it. Sadly we got the short end of the stick, but hey, that's baseball. MLB really needs to work on some sort of salary cap.

Burnett was an inconsistent injury prone pitcher with attitude problems in Florida...and that's exactly what he was in Toronto.

Ryan had just one season as a closer under his belt but got the richest contract in MLB history for a reliever. It's pretty dumb to commit that kind of money to a closer, especially for a team on a budget. They were lousy moves. I don't know how you can defend the Ryan deal then complain the playing field isn't fair.

By dumping Rios for nothing, Ricciardi has cemented himself as arguably the worst GM in the game.

 

[k.w.l.]

I agree that JP is a terrible GM and has to go. In his eight years they have never played a meaningful game in September. Not one. In 2006 they were out of it by mid-July. Sure they went on a bit of a run after the pressure was off and made their end of season record look ok, but at no point did they have a legitimate shot at a playoff spot.

Having said that, I think dumping Rios was a good move. I don't care how much "talent" he has, he's never been a clutch player. “Aloof†is the best word I can think of to describe him. His contract (along with Wells') was a huge albatross going forward (JP’s mistake was agreeing to it in the first place). They didn’t get anything in return because they couldn’t. If any team was interested in him, I’m sure they could have worked something out before the July 31 deadline. Same goes for Wells, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was put on waivers too, we’ll never know because obviously no one was crazy enough to claim him and take on that contract. So when the opportunity came along to get out of the Rios contract, it was a no-brainer.

 

[GenerationW]

The other theory, which most media guys (especially Bob McCown) are avoiding like the plague, is that this is a part of Rogers stripping down salaries to the bare bones as a prelude to selling the team.

 

[Redroom Studios]

watching the Jays is so painful and so much like watching the Leafs. How many years do they think they can field a team with only one star player? I just feel so sorry for Cito Gaston... a guy who clearly has the credentials as a winning manager... given a bunch of no names and guys who cant deliver after they get a big contract to work with. I dont know, so often it just looks like the team is "not in the game". Its been a long sad history after the glory years... and even before that when we had competetive teams that never gave up. I miss all those character players from the mid 80's right up until the 2nd World Series win...

oh, and I've never like Ricciardi from when he was first introduced as GM... he just seems arrogant and more comcerned with collecting his own paycheck than doing anything to help improve the team. Its about time he gets the boot.

 

[jn_12]

You could make the argument that this team proves that Gaston really isn't a good manager. He was great with the team of the early 90's but they were two of the best teams ever assembled and any manager could have done great things with them. Granted Gaston had a terrific first 160 games with the club (last half of last year, first half of this year) including turning Lind into an All-star calibre player but his refusal to pinch hit for players in key situations and his refusal to drop Rios and Wells down in the order earlier in the season are examples of his lack of managerial ability.

Also, I'd say this team has some great players. Hill has become one of the best second basemen in baseball. Lind is becoming a great hitter, When Rolen was here he was the best defensive third basemen in the majors (and he was hitting up a storm too) and they have some young pitchers that are showing some potential like Romero and Cecil. And then you have Halladay.

Ya last night's game wasn't great but Tallet was the problem. Scutaro could have had a base clearing line drive with the bases loaded in the 7th but Zobrist happened to be in the right place at the right time. That would have tied the game at 5-5. Different ballgame

However, I agree that Rios and Wells were and are the problem. The so-called "stars" of this team aren't rising to the occasion. At least there is some hope in the examples I named above, and I think it's a pretty good foundation to build upon. Ultimately, the next 5 years for the Jays depends on what they do this off-season. If Rogers puts the money in to the team that Beeston says will be available, they have a chance at being a contender by filling some holes. If they don't, then next year will be a long season.

 

[syn]

You could make the argument that this team proves that Gaston really isn't a good manager. He was great with the team of the early 90's but they were two of the best teams ever assembled and any manager could have done great things with them. Granted Gaston had a terrific first 160 games with the club (last half of last year, first half of this year) including turning Lind into an All-star calibre player but his refusal to pinch hit for players in key situations and his refusal to drop Rios and Wells down in the order earlier in the season are examples of his lack of managerial ability.

People seem to forget he took over a 12-24 team in 1989 and led them to the pennant...and they didn't have the Wild Card back then either.

Most teams that win the World Series are great teams. I can't hold that against him.

This year's team was expected to be awful. The fact that they're just 5 games under .500 would probably have been considered overachieving if they hadn't got off to such a surprising start.

Also, I'd say this team has some great players. Hill has become one of the best second basemen in baseball. Lind is becoming a great hitter, When Rolen was here he was the best defensive third basemen in the majors (and he was hitting up a storm too) and they have some young pitchers that are showing some potential like Romero and Cecil. And then you have Halladay.

I'd keep in mind Wells was considered a great hitter too. They're having great seasons but I'd like to see if they can do it every year before declaring them great.

Rolen has always been great defensively, but he's nearing the end of his career and wanted out.

Ya last night's game wasn't great but Tallet was the problem. Scutaro could have had a base clearing line drive with the bases loaded in the 7th with the bases loaded but Zobist happened to be in the right place at the right time. That would have tied the game at 5-5. Different ballgame

However, I agree that Rios and Wells were and are the problem. The so-called "stars" of this team aren't rising to the occasion. At least there is some hope in the examples I named above, and I think it's a pretty good foundation to build upon. Ultimately, the next 5 years for the Jays depends on what they do this off-season. If Rogers puts the money in to the team that Beeston says will be available, they have a chance at being a contender by filling some holes. If they don't, then next year will be a long season.

I'm not sure how Rios was the problem. He's on pace for a career high in RBIs, and nearly 30 SB. This is the first year in 4 years he hasn't hit close to .300. People are fooling themselves if they think they'll get a better replacement for $10 million/season.

Getting rid of him for nothing was stupid.

 

[jn_12]

But that 89 team wasn't a .333 team. They were like this year's pittsburgh penguins, a team that wasn't on the radar until a new coach was brought in to shake things up.

ya I should have included Wells, but I guess his contract makes him seem perpetually underwhelming, plus he's right now one of the worst defensive outfielders in the league. I think Hill has shown signs of being a great hitter. in 07 he did well, and this year obviously he's having a potential career year. I don't think it's a blip because I don't think he's that type of player. Lind I see being on the same path. Agree about Rolen who is at the end of it, but still a great asset.

The problem with Rios is exemplified by the fact the Jays could only give him away at this point in his career. Not one of 29 teams wanted to offer anything for him. His OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+ are all on a 3 year declines. I agree getting rid of him for nothing was dumb, unless they're able to apply his money elsewhere for something of better value. That's the only way it works (and if that happens, we can just look at it as a trade - Rios for Free Agent)

 

[syn]

But that 89 team wasn't a .333 team. They were like this year's pittsburgh penguins, a team that wasn't on the radar until a new coach was brought in to shake things up.

That analogy doesn't really work. The Penguins weren't that far out of a playoff spot.

Besides, at that time in baseball just four teams made the post season. To take over a 12-24 team and lead them to the playoffs is impressive.

Gaston has proven himself to be a very good manager (though he does make frustrating decisions at times).

ya I should have included Wells, but I guess his contract makes him seem perpetually underwhelming, plus he's right now one of the worst defensive outfielders in the league.

What are you talking about? He has no errors this year and has the highest zone rating of any centre fielder in the game. He's definitely not one of the worst...quite the opposite.

The problem with Rios is exemplified by the fact the Jays could only give him away at this point in his career. Not one of 29 teams wanted to offer anything for him. His OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+ are all on a 3 year declines. I agree getting rid of him for nothing was dumb, unless they're able to apply his money elsewhere for something of better value. That's the only way it works (and if that happens, we can just look at it as a trade - Rios for Free Agent)

I believe Chicago was the 5th team on the waiver wire and they picked him up right away. The teams before them weren't in a position to take him. The other teams (most teams in the game) didn't get a chance.

The argument that it works if they can sign a free agent makes no sense whatsoever. You could give away any player and use that argument. The fact is, they gave him that contract. Correcting your own mistake doesn't make it a good move.

At 28 years old he's likely to get better. The smart (or normal) thing to do would've been to trade him in the offseason. Instead he got nothing for him.

There's absolutely no way to justify it.

 

[jn_12]

That analogy doesn't really work. The Penguins weren't that far out of a playoff spot.

Besides, at that time in baseball just four teams made the post season. To take over a 12-24 team and lead them to the playoffs is impressive.

Gaston has proven himself to be a very good manager (though he does make frustrating decisions at times).

36 games into the season isn't that much at all. You can completely turn a team around in that time and it happens all the time (in both directions, bad teams can get better and good teams can get immensely worse...). The Penguins were tenth at one point, and to suggest they'd win it all is similar (to me at least) to saying the Jays would make the playoffs 40 games in.

What are you talking about? He has no errors this year and has the highest zone rating of any centre fielder in the game. He's definitely not one of the worst...quite the opposite.

uhh perhaps you're reading the stats wrong. Based on his UZR and UZR/150, he's the worst fielder in the majors. By far actually. He's 10 points behind the next worst player in both categories.

I believe Chicago was the 5th team on the waiver wire and they picked him up right away. The teams before them weren't in a position to take him. The other teams (most teams in the game) didn't get a chance.

The argument that it works if they can sign a free agent makes no sense whatsoever. You could give away any player and use that argument. The fact is, they gave him that contract. Correcting your own mistake doesn't make it a good move.

At 28 years old he's likely to get better. The smart (or normal) thing to do would've been to trade him in the offseason. Instead he got nothing for him.

There's absolutely no way to justify it.

Well first off all, I'm sure Rios had been dangled in front of teams for a while now. He was in the past offered for Lincecum, so there's nothing to suggest he was immediately taken off the market in the two years between then and his waiver release. No one wanted him at a price pre-trade deadline.

Obviously getting something in return is always good, but IF they sign a player for the money they would have spent on Rios, then how is that not similar to a 1for1 deal? What would be the difference between (hypothetically) trading Rios for Jason Bay who is also a free agent this winter or trading Rios for nothing and getting Bay in Free agency? Really, nothing. I don't think they'll go after Bay, but insert anyone for Bay and if the value is equal or greater than Rios then it's a smart move.

I don't think we know if Rios will get better. Ya he's 28 and heading into "prime years", but we don't know. We're just basing it on the generalization that all players peak at roughly the same age.

 

[jn_12]

and the jays went and signed only 2 of their 5 day one draft picks from June... so very disappointing.

 

[Build Up]

/\another bad move by the jays o well i think every jays fan is used to jays making bad moves. great game last night. one of the first time ive seen the jays put up a good comeback and game since may (when they were good). its also good that they called snider up. its seems like hes good luck because when they sent him down they went to that boston series that killed them and after that a 9 game losing streak . and now that he came back they had their first exciting game in a long time. im not superstitious but its a cool coincedence. because they are doing bad this year i look forward to a decent draft pick.

 

[Build Up]

Was at the game tonight and it was really cool to listen to the thunder inside the skydome. Crappy game to go to though.