[Brian69]

Between the recent play of late, releasing Ryan (with Downs just coming back) and entertaining offers for Halliday I'd say the season is on life support.

 

[syn]

They released BJ today... I'm really curious to see what is in store for the Jay's after the All-Star break.

Another ridiculous move from one of the worst GMs in the game (if not the worst). When it's all said and done, they will have paid Ryan $47 million for 1 good season and 1 so-so season. It was a terrible contract to begin with and now Ricciardi has went and made it even worse.

They could've just kept him in the minors to see if he could improve at all for next year then just try to trade him. Instead they're paying $20 million over this year and next year for him to do nothing (and possibly play for another team).

I don't know how he has managed to stick around for nearly 8 years.

Halladay apparently might want out too...Ricciardi is the last GM I'd want trading him.

 

[GenerationW]

Halladay apparently might want out too

Why would he? He was dumb enough to believe two fools like PJ and Godfrey by re-signing last time, so why couldn't he fall for another con job? He'll probably do whatever they want, again.

And seriously, what has he ever really done in the clutch? Last September he had two opportunities to move his team from out-of-it to at least making it a little interesting, and he slipped on a banana peel both times. But at least he ended up with 20 wins for a whole 2nd (!!) time in his career.

A real "best pitcher in baseball" (which all the fawning Toronto media say he is) can take an average team and carry it on his back to at least a division title once in his career. This guy hasn't even come close to that. If he really is the best pitcher in baseball and not a fraud, then I ask, quoting Bob McCown, cite the case?

 

[syn]

Why would he? He was dumb enough to believe two fools like PJ and Godfrey by re-signing last time, so why couldn't he fall for another con job? He'll probably do whatever they want, again.

And seriously, what has he ever really done in the clutch? Last September he had two opportunities to move his team from out-of-it to at least making it a little interesting, and he slipped on a banana peel both times. But at least he ended up with 20 wins for a whole 2nd (!!) time in his career.

A real "best pitcher in baseball" (which all the fawning Toronto media say he is) can take an average team and carry it on his back to at least a division title once in his career. This guy hasn't even come close to that. If he really is the best pitcher in baseball and not a fraud, then I ask, quoting Bob McCown, cite the case?

As good as a starting pitcher might be, he only pitches once every 5 days. The Jays simply have not had teams anywhere near good enough to compete. I can't fault him for the Jays not winning the division last year...can you?

Apparently he told Ricciardi it would be okay if he wanted to field offers.

 

[marcus_a_j]

1-6 on the current road trip so far and below .500 for the first time this season after the conclusion of the Rays sweep today. The frustrating part is that they could be 6-1 on this road trip with a lot of these past games 1-run and/or extra inning games. The Ryan move is not unexpected given his performance and recent outburst of frustration with his role, but with the Jays eating up $15 mil over the next 1.5 seasons, we can kiss goodbye the chances of spending some extra coin and landing another arm after the all-star break.

The recent struggles cast a shadow over some of the bright spots on the team as some have mentioned. 1 and 1a would be Romero for this continued improvements and his last four impressive outings, and Rolen for his hitting and fielding. Lind has continued to show he can play at this level with his ability to get doubles, home runs and rbis off of lefties and righties. Wells is showing some signs of life, but I continue to pull my hair during critical at-bats. Altough Hill's average has dropped to below .300, he is still getting good hits and his defence along with Scutaro's provides a solid defence up the middle. Apart from Overbay, who is not too shaby, our infield is the best in the majors. And lastly, we have two solid catchers who are capable defensively and can hit at times when needed.

 

[jn_12]

Why would he? He was dumb enough to believe two fools like PJ and Godfrey by re-signing last time, so why couldn't he fall for another con job? He'll probably do whatever they want, again.

And seriously, what has he ever really done in the clutch? Last September he had two opportunities to move his team from out-of-it to at least making it a little interesting, and he slipped on a banana peel both times. But at least he ended up with 20 wins for a whole 2nd (!!) time in his career.

A real "best pitcher in baseball" (which all the fawning Toronto media say he is) can take an average team and carry it on his back to at least a division title once in his career. This guy hasn't even come close to that. If he really is the best pitcher in baseball and not a fraud, then I ask, quoting Bob McCown, cite the case?

First of all, he is part of that group of players who has a strong belief in the people who got him to that point. Think of people like Yzerman, Sakic, Jeter, Tony Gwynn, ripken jr, Aikman, etc.. Loyalty is an admirable trait. And to slag a guy for being loyal to the team and city he plays for truly is a pathetic and weak argument.

In September last year he went 3-2. He allowed 7 runs total in his two losses and had a huge run support of 1. The jays scored 1 run while he was pitching in his two losing starts. 1!!!! How the hell is that slipping on a banana peel? Did you want him to step up to the plate and hit home runs too?

Not only that, but do you understand how much better (and consistently greater) he has been then every other pitcher in baseball? I mean stats wise only Johan Santana comes close. You have to also remember that in two of his last 7 seasons he's had freak injuries that caused him not to hit 20 wins. Not that wins mean anything anyways. You can allow 8 earned runs and still get a win. Wins is the most over-rated stat in baseball. I know you've never heard of these stats, but look at CGs, opponents ERA, WHIP, BABIP, etc... and compare him to guys you consider the best. Hell, look at his Win % which is insanely greater than every other pitcher in baseball over the last 7 or 8 years. If you can honestly look at the facts and say he hasn't been the best pitcher in baseball, I'd be amazed.

By your argument, Tony Gwynn wasn't the best hitter in baseball while he was playing. He never won a world series. Ripken Jr? He sucked! Nolan Ryan only won 1 championship in 27 years. What a shitty pitcher. I wouldn't want him. Fact is, championships don't make you the greatest player ever. Fact is a lot of shitty players in every sport get themselves a ring and a lot of great players don't. However, baseball might be the only sport where a single player cannot single-handedly take over a game. A pitcher can lose you a game, but he certainly cannot win you one.

Finally, I'd say the greatest compliment is from your peers. And no pitcher in baseball gets more fellow players saying "he's the best pitcher in baseball" than Halladay. That to me says it all.

-------------------------------------

Syn: Halladay's okay with them fielding offers because he understands the situation. He doesn't want out of Toronto. He just knows that it's a business and the Jays are in a situation where he has immense value and the chance to get a lot of assets back for him. I don't think he will be traded this year anyways. They would be better off waiting a year, seeing if (with a healthy rotation) 2010 is the year they think it will be, and if things don't go great then trade him then. Automatically, the Jays would get two 1st round picks if Halladay went to free agency after 2010. So they would have to get something way higher than that this year to not keep him. And that's not going to happen right now.

 

[GenerationW]

First of all, he is part of that group of players who has a strong belief in the people who got him to that point. Think of people like Yzerman, Sakic, Jeter, Tony Gwynn, ripken jr, Aikman, etc.. Loyalty is an admirable trait. And to slag a guy for being loyal to the team and city he plays for truly is a pathetic and weak argument.

The city and the team have nothing to do with it. I'm slagging his character and judgement for buying what Godfrey and JP were selling.

In September last year he went 3-2. He allowed 7 runs total in his two losses and had a huge run support of 1. The jays scored 1 run while he was pitching in his two losing starts. 1!!!! How the hell is that slipping on a banana peel? Did you want him to step up to the plate and hit home runs too?

I expect him to find a way to win games when the real bullets are flying. I don't want excuses, and a so-called best pitcher in baseball shouldn't be given any. And to set the record straight, he won his last two starts to get to 20 when there was absolutely no pressure. When there was hope, minuscule though it was, he couldn't come through.

Not only that, but do you understand how much better (and consistently greater) he has been then every other pitcher in baseball? I mean stats wise only Johan Santana comes close. You have to also remember that in two of his last 7 seasons he's had freak injuries that caused him not to hit 20 wins. Not that wins mean anything anyways. You can allow 8 earned runs and still get a win. Wins is the most over-rated stat in baseball. I know you've never heard of these stats, but look at CGs, opponents ERA, WHIP, BABIP, etc... and compare him to guys you consider the best. Hell, look at his Win % which is insanely greater than every other pitcher in baseball over the last 7 or 8 years. If you can honestly look at the facts and say he hasn't been the best pitcher in baseball, I'd be amazed.

I've heard of those stats but stats are for losers and injuries are excuses only up to a point. It's not like he had cancer like Mario Lemieux, or was subject to pre-historic surgical techniques like Bobby Orr (and both still became legends).

Has Halladay been consistently good? Okay, I'll buy that. Consistently great? I don't see it.

By your argument, Tony Gwynn wasn't the best hitter in baseball while he was playing. He never won a world series. Ripken Jr? He sucked! Nolan Ryan only won 1 championship in 27 years. What a shitty pitcher. I wouldn't want him. Fact is, championships don't make you the greatest player ever. Fact is a lot of shitty players in every sport get themselves a ring and a lot of great players don't. However, baseball might be the only sport where a single player cannot single-handedly take over a game. A pitcher can lose you a game, but he certainly cannot win you one.

Who said anything about a World Series? I said playoffs. Or how about even meaningful games in September? Not even once.

And your analysis that a pitcher can't win you games is ridiculous. In 1972 Steve Carlton won 27 games in a year his team only won 59 games. True best pitchers in baseball can, single-handed, get the job done even with limited run support.

I will also argue that Roger Clemens was the difference in the Red Sox winning the AL East in 1988 and 90 over a better Blue Jay team.

Finally, I'd say the greatest compliment is from your peers. And no pitcher in baseball gets more fellow players saying "he's the best pitcher in baseball" than Halladay. That to me says it all.

Oh please, as if other elite pitchers don't get those kind of kiss-ass quotes. You're just hearing things from a Blue Jays-centric point of view.

 

[syn]

The city and the team have nothing to do with it. I'm slagging his character and judgement for buying what Godfrey and JP were selling.

I expect him to find a way to win games when the real bullets are flying. I don't want excuses, and a so-called best pitcher in baseball shouldn't be given any. And to set the record straight, he won his last two starts to get to 20 when there was absolutely no pressure. When there was hope, minuscule though it was, he couldn't come through.

I've heard of those stats but stats are for losers and injuries are excuses only up to a point. It's not like he had cancer like Mario Lemieux, or was subject to pre-historic surgical techniques like Bobby Orr (and both still became legends).

Has Halladay been consistently good? Okay, I'll buy that. Consistently great? I don't see it.

Who said anything about a World Series? I said playoffs. Or how about even meaningful games in September? Not even once.

And your analysis that a pitcher can't win you games is ridiculous. In 1972 Steve Carlton won 27 games in a year his team only won 59 games. True best pitchers in baseball can, single-handed, get the job done even with limited run support.

I will also argue that Roger Clemens was the difference in the Red Sox winning the AL East in 1988 and 90 over a better Blue Jay team.

Oh please, as if other elite pitchers don't get those kind of kiss-ass quotes. You're just hearing things from a Blue Jays-centric point of view.

Your arguments are ridiculous. Halladay has been, by far, the best pitcher on mediocre teams. When is the last time Roger Clemens won 27 games? Never. Halladay could win 25 games a year and it wouldn't matter if the team behind him didn't perform. Your Carlton example actually makes the point for me nicely.

Ricciardi is an awful GM, but I can't blame Halladay for his loyalty.

As jn_12 pointed out, wins and losses are the worst stats by which to judge a pitcher. By every measure Halladay has been one of the best in the game for years.

 

[jn_12]

How ridiculous...

I'm not going to waste my time with you GenerationW. You're saying stats are for losers only because it doesn't fit in with your argument. On every statistical measure you can say that Halladay is one of the top 2 or 3 greatest pitchers of his era. And when you do use a stat (the most meaningless of all, wins) as Syn pointed out, you end up using it improperly to argue against your own argument. Next you'll be bringing Cy Young into the conversation ("Halladay has only a third of the career wins as Young!! he sucks!!") failing to recognize the guy pitched as part of a two man rotation.

Anyways, go back to reading Steve Simmons. Thanks.

 

[Translude15]

The Jays are now where I (and I'm sure many others) expected them to be. A lot of us were disappointed with Riccardi's cautious off-season and didn't expect too much.

The early play was a nice anomaly but an anomaly all the same, and they still can't beat the big boys when they need to. I agree that this team has a lot of potential, but they need to start the season with at least 2 (and probably 3) solid starters. It's just too much of a wing and a prayer to expect them to stay in the race long enough to pick up a starter before trade deadline with the staff they have--and over a long season it shows. But it is the offense that has been more disappointing. Wells (who showed a bit recently but far too little overall) and Rios (who might be as overrated as he seems right now) have to be the heart of the lineup the Jays expected them to be. Great to see Hill and Lind picking up the slack but its not enough.

Very true Brian. I'm still very optimistic about their chances however. Losing 6 of 7 against the Yanks and Rays is bad, but every game against those teams was close. The Jays clawed back when they were down and every single one of those games was winnable. Once they get their rotation sorted out and the underachievers heat up, look for a serious push up the standings. They can compete against the big boys, there's no question about it. More fans in the stands at the Dome would really motivate these guys too. It's painful to see such a vast swash of blue during every home game.

 

[GenerationW]

Your arguments are ridiculous. Halladay has been, by far, the best pitcher on mediocre teams. When is the last time Roger Clemens won 27 games? Never. Halladay could win 25 games a year and it wouldn't matter if the team behind him didn't perform. Your Carlton example actually makes the point for me nicely.

Carlton pitched in a 4-man rotation that year (Clemens and Halladay never did regularly AFAIK), but my point was that Carlton did almost everything with next to nothing behind him. Halladay's teams might have been mediocre earlier in his career, but they've been at least average lately, and never terrible.

By every measure Halladay has been one of the best in the game for years.

Not every measure, unless one believes individual stats are all that matters. By the measure of team success, Halladay's whole is clearly less than the sum of his parts.

 

[GenerationW]

I'm not going to waste my time with you GenerationW. You're saying stats are for losers only because it doesn't fit in with your argument. On every statistical measure you can say that Halladay is one of the top 2 or 3 greatest pitchers of his era. And when you do use a stat (the most meaningless of all, wins) as Syn pointed out, you end up using it improperly to argue against your own argument. Next you'll be bringing Cy Young into the conversation ("Halladay has only a third of the career wins as Young!! he sucks!!") failing to recognize the guy pitched as part of a two man rotation.

Anyways, go back to reading Steve Simmons. Thanks.

For not wasting your time with me, you did a great job!

The stat I care about more than any other is team success (not Cy Young's stats), and the Jays could just as easily not contend for the playoffs without Halladay as with him. And who knows, maybe they can contend better without him since the evidence is clear how they've done with him.

I've disliked Steve Simmons since the 80's. Why bring him up?

 

[syn]

Carlton pitched in a 4-man rotation that year (Clemens and Halladay never did regularly AFAIK)

Of course they didn't. They're pitchers from a different era. The four man rotation pretty much disappeared by the mid 80s. I believe the 84' Jays were the last team use one for an entire season.

I don't know how this can be blamed on Halladay.

It makes no sense to compare Halladay and Carlton.

but my point was that Carlton did almost everything with next to nothing behind him. Halladay's teams might have been mediocre earlier in his career, but they've been at least average lately, and never terrible.

But Carlton didn't do anything by your standards. Despite his performance, the team was terrible. Halladay was arguably the best pitcher in the AL last year and the team didn't get anywhere...it wasn't because of him, it was because he was on a crappy team.

Not every measure, unless one believes individual stats are all that matters. By the measure of team success, Halladay's whole is clearly less than the sum of his parts.

You're using Steve Carlton's 27 win year as an example, and his team came in last. I guess that means he didn't have a good year?

People argue stats don't mean anything when they don't have stats (ie. facts) on their side.

 

[syn]

For not wasting your time with me, you did a great job!

The stat I care about more than any other is team success (not Cy Young's stats), and the Jays could just as easily not contend for the playoffs without Halladay as with him. And who knows, maybe they can contend better without him since the evidence is clear how they've done with him.

I've disliked Steve Simmons since the 80's. Why bring him up?

After using Steve Carlton as your example, it should be pretty obvious a player can be the best in the game and their team can still do badly. This is why baseball is known as a team sport. It takes more than one pitcher to have a playoff calibre team.

 

[jn_12]

how pathetic is the wins stat? Alan Embree the other day got the win for the Rockies without throwing a pitch. BJ Ryan did the same thing back in 2003 with the Orioles.

We also have to remember that a pitcher could throw 8 innings of shutout baseball and get a no decision. His bullpen could blow it for him. Another reason why wins mean nothing.

if you want a good article to read that outlines more of these arguments: http://www.hardballcooperative.com/?p=834


Also, the Jays haven't been a crappy team. In any other division they would have been a playoff team. Is that an excuse? well it doesn't need to be because Tampa proved last year that you can get past the Sox and yankees. But at the same time, the reality is that they've been the best non-playoff team in baseball. I've been unable to find the stats (and don't feel like doing all the math myself) but I recall reading somewhere that they actually have the best win% of all non-playoff teams over the last 5-7 years.