MichaelS
Senior Member
Is there a jurisdiction (that isn't Amsterdam) where they are common?
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- Thread starter Cowtown
- Start date
Silence&Motion
Senior Member
I’ve wondered the same thing, particularly in front of parks and schools where the speed limit is already 30.
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
The answer is $ isn't it?
darwink
Senior Member
Yeah. It requires more engineering, more sewer catch basins, and for roads we wouldn’t put a speed bump on, adding one makes snow clearing way more difficult.
CBBarnett
Senior Member
The answer is rarely money - freeways and ring roads are some of the most expensive stuff we build and we find money for those, speed bumps and raised crossings are hardly budget-breakers.
To me, the answer why we don't see these kinds of pedestrian improvements is a mix of transportation "standards" that resist change - meaning generally accepted design and building practices for the engineering profession, decades of city-specifications, Alberta roads, randomly applied fire truck and bus standard practices etc. - combined with typically very obtuse or non-existent feedback mechanisms for the public to influence how things are done on both the "standards" level or the local issue level.
I am not aware of any process where locals can just vote to put in speed bumps on their own street or raise a cross walk to a school so they can walk there. Even if you band together and raise enough noise to get a professional study done, the public doesn't have a say on the thresholds for when "acceptable" safety is achieved. Many possible improvements that would make neighbourhoods safer and more livable have died at this step because the standards say there's not really an issue as defined by them, ignoring that if we just built all local streets safer, slower, narrower in the first place you'd never even need to do the study.
This explains our reality - there's many Calgary-specific examples where the "standards" weren't applied, the roadways and road geometry was tightened up, traffic calming and cut-through speeding was eliminated. But it isn't applied everywhere, it's totally ad-hoc - a specific project with a strong vision that out-competed business as usual for a period of time (e.g. downtown cycletracks in the early 2010s), a specific politician with ongoing focus and energy to keep challenging standards to make things more walkable and safer (e.g. Kensington areas better-than-average success in getting traffic calming and nice sidewalks decades ago) several repeated safety tragedies caused directly by "business as usual" road design (Elbow Drive's famous 40km/h stretch) etc.
Luckily change is happening - standards are shifting and professional practices are moving towards more recognition of safety and walkability. Cycletracks are becoming standards themselves, just part of the process to look at when a road is being rebuilt. Those new main streets redesigns are top-quality, higher quality pathways and cycling facilities are proposed all the time now, 8th Street SW 5 to 3 lanes proposal, 11th Street SW pedestrian-only underpass, 40km/h standard v. 50km/h etc.
It's too slow of change - hence my endless pedestrian safety and design rants - but it definitely is changing positively.
lemongrab
Active Member
Can you elaborate on this? Not totally getting the connection with the Elbow Drive example?
CBBarnett
Senior Member
https://www.sprawlcalgary.com/sprawlcast-the-longest-playground-zone-in-calgary
Interesting hyper-local history - a combo of multiple-children hit in close succession combined with the ability and resources to advocate city hall was the secret sauce to get reduced speed limits on Elbow Drive way back in the early 1990s, well before many of the more in-vogue discussions about traffic calming, active transportation in current contexts.
Business as usual road standards were bent on Elbow, dropping 50km/h to 40km/h and a large playground zone that improves the neighbourhood's walkability and pedestrian safety.
It's also a notable example because it highlights an equity issue. But not every dangerous road or route to school has advocates with the political pull, resources and determination to see it done, so almost everywhere else continued with business as usual until a generation later the standards themselves began to shift towards a 40km/h approach and more wide-spread recognition that business-as-usual street designs kill and injury children all the time, not just on Elbow Drive.
Had every road in all residential neighbourhoods and all walking routes to schools been targeted citywide with the "Elbow Drive" treatment starting in the 1990s, we'd have a very different and far more traffic-calmed and walkable city by now.
lemongrab
Active Member
^ Thanks, I wasn't aware of the accident history there (figured it was just a traffic discouragement strategy for them rich folk).
CBBarnett
Senior Member
I found what might be Calgary's largest raised crossing, in exactly that context - Mount Royal University between the bus loop and the campus building here:
Notably, here's the nearest public elementary school's pedestrian crossing. Note the bump-out, but also the lack of curb ramps, ginormous 1950s era roads here:
The school is tucked deep into the residential community so traffic would be low, but it's the kind example where just updating our standards about how pedestrians are treated around schools to something slightly more pedestrian friendly and safe would be a no-brainer (e.g. wider sidewalks to handle rush loads of children/parents, close street during pick off and drop off, add more crossings and a raised crossing aligned with the school entrance rather than just randomly down the side of the building etc.)
Otherwise that sidewalk is likely to stay the same width with a crappy crossing until a child (or several) are injured here. I'd imagine there's about 100 schools with a similar level of pedestrian thought applied to them.
darwink
Senior Member
Silence&Motion
Senior Member
They just rebuilt the curbs around Altadore School and created sidewalk extensions at the main crosswalk. Seems like an obvious place to have added a raised crosswalk. Doesn’t seem like money would have been this issue here. More likely the City has little experience building them. They only figured out how to do sidewalk extensions a few years ago. Remember the days when they used to build those rounded bump-outs NEXT to the crosswalk with hazard signs that actually prevented drivers from seeing people trying to cross?
Also, any time I hear someone talk about snowplows as the reason for not putting in curb extensions, bike lanes, or speed bumps, I think “what snowplows?” In the 7 years I’ve lived on my street, it’s only been plowed once. I’d happily trade that one time we got plowed for permanent curb extensions and speed bumps.
Also, any time I hear someone talk about snowplows as the reason for not putting in curb extensions, bike lanes, or speed bumps, I think “what snowplows?” In the 7 years I’ve lived on my street, it’s only been plowed once. I’d happily trade that one time we got plowed for permanent curb extensions and speed bumps.
whatchyyc
Active Member
BrandedBlue
New Member
A raised crosswalk likely wasn't added here because of the transit route on 16 Street. Calgary Transit has been a staunch opponent of raised crosswalks or speed humps on any roads with bus routes, because their buses would either have to slow down (delaying them by seconds) or affect the user experience of the bus riders. I've seen Calgary adding a few raised crosswalks around the city, but they are never on regular bus routes.
lemongrab
Active Member
It looks like the bus stops are pretty much ride next to where the raised crossing will go. So a bus would either be about to stop, or departing from a stop. All while in a playground zone. Any impact should be negligible.
whatchyyc
Active Member
Good old CT, caring about the 2 second delay from a raised crosswalk but doesn't care to schedule the 302 properly so it isn't perpetually late...
