To me there will only be enough foot traffic on that corner when the east end of 17 ave gets built out. With the rebuild of the CTrain station there it might be a go to place. If foot traffic does improve there at that point I’m sure future new buildings on 17th ave will have the appropriate amount of retail/hospitality needed. I don’t think the BMO’s purpose is to provide those needs. If it does what it’s intended to do (bring lots of visitors and locals to the area) for conventions then those things will come with other development
 
Tothewest said:
This! And I do think Rivers/Stam Trail has the potential with the EC to create a pretty cool area if done properly. but we havent got to that stage yet
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What we have left is the EC and the Hotel on Stampede Trail. For city building the better projects are Stephen Ave, Arts Commons, and Olympic Plaza.
 
Tothewest said:
I mean aside from a large public gathering plaza at the corner, sure looks like the plan is being followed...not sure what ur point is. 17th was never supposed to have retail, and so it doesnt!!
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The part of the plan that shows retail on both sides of Stampede Trail, from 12th to 17th Avenue. Here we have one half billion dollar investment, taking up 1/4 of that streetscape, providing zero retail. That is where it is not following the plan.
 
My disappointment is that 17th Ave doesn’t come through and meet at a 90° angle with Stampede Trail. It would be nice to have another building south of the BMO centre and have a mini canyon that opens into 17th Ave. I also wish they did something better with the gray brick wall.
I tend to agree with the others about the retail not being needed. I’ve been to dozens of conventions over the years, and the norm is to go to the convention hall, do your stuff and as soon as the convention day ends, bolt for the nearest retail entertainment area. If it’s within 15-20 minutes walk, people will go on foot, if it’s more than that people hop in a cab. The key is to have the convention centre within walking distance of an entertainment area.
Of all the convention centres I’ve been to I couldn’t tell you which ones had retail and which ones didn’t. I remember all the bar and restaurants strips of each city though. Lol.
 
MichaelS said:
The part of the plan that shows retail on both sides of Stampede Trail, from 12th to 17th Avenue. Here we have one half billion dollar investment, taking up 1/4 of that streetscape, providing zero retail. That is where it is not following the plan.
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This is the part where i'll warn you to never hold a pre-design *concept* plan to a microscopic standard. Most of us will view a very large public plaza over the corner (original plan had a skinny plaza on 17th only) as a great addition to the streetscape for gatherings, small shows, events, ect... However, if your line in the sand is that retail HAS to run all the way to 17th on 4th, on BOTH sides of the road...then I guess you win. I believe the success of Stam Trail resides firmly on the hotel site, the EC, and the frontage of the old saddledome land. Not to mention the lands to the north to provide more residents
 
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At the end of the day it isn't really if the plan has retail or not but rather who would lease there. With the current level of development in that area, no one in their right mind would open a restaurant or retail there. In their brochure, this is what they think 17th will look like, and the right is what it looked like in 2021 (no BMO in the background but that area is largely the same today). If we get the brochure version of 17th, I'm sure retail will find it's way into new developments and the surrounding area. Developers will build what's economical, if there's demand for retail, they'll build it.
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trtcttc said:
At the end of the day it isn't really if the plan has retail or not but rather who would lease there. With the current level of development in that area, no one in their right mind would open a restaurant or retail there. In their brochure, this is what they think 17th will look like, and the right is what it looked like in 2021 (no BMO in the background but that area is largely the same today). If we get the brochure version of 17th, I'm sure retail will find it's way into new developments and the surrounding area. Developers will build what's economical, if there's demand for retail, they'll build it.
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Yah...The reality is, bc of Macleod trail/Repsol/LRT tracks/stampede grounds...there just isnt enough permanent people traffic in that area...retail has no shot. And that's ok, not every part of downtown is going to be fully active way. Stam Trail and 12th give us the best shot with event/convention traffic and necessary housing. imo
 
Duck Lightning said:
Isn't CNE larger?
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I think the CNE is just a large fair for torontonians, and yes prob larger park attendance. Stampede has a much larger hold on an entire city, and what with the rodeo and party vibe, more out of town visitors.

Point remains, those south stampede parking lots do more for our city than anything you could build in its place
 
I think one thing that is being over looked is that there is potential to fill up the blocks between the Macleods with a decent amount of people.

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I hold out hope that the Stampede has a plan for Weadickville that includes a really kitschy western village. I can't imagine the Big Four has a long life with the new expansion? There's opportunity for a Lammle's, a Stampede Store, and maybe even a permanent "Stampede Breakfast" breakfast/brunch place in the new Weadickville with perhaps a couple other places. Doesn't have to be a huge development, I imagine it could look something like this (six CRUs with a greenspace):

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Saying all this I do think you'd like to see more residents in the area before doing this but there is still some opportunity to capture people coming off the train at Victoria Park Stampede/Stampede station going to Flames games and other Saddledome events.
 
I've heard that Weadiickville and Big Four are a preferred locaton for a new hotel development in the future. I think the best you can expect right now is a new Weadickville either at the east end of 17th along the Elbow River or the old Indian Village location. At the moment though I haven't heard of any plans to keep Weadickville
 
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