[CalgaryTiger]

Or, you were foolish enough to think the Rivers District Master Plan actually carried some weight when handing over half a billion dollars of public money:
View attachment 522435

Note the ground floor retail potion highlighed that was supposed to line Stampede Trail, the mixed use, active festival street.

I'm mostly interested in the Flexible/Flat Space where the Saddledome currently sits. C'mon large anchor park at the end of 17th Ave extension!

 

[Tothewest]

What point are you trying to make?

That other car-brained cities are similarly bad at creating interesting pedestrian spaces?

It's not rocket science. Cars, Parking, and Roads make for hostile environments.

Want inviting environments? Let as few cars near them as possible.

So your expectation was Calgary was going to do something wildy more pedestrian and street focused....than Nashville and Vegas? So lets say they added a cafe and a restaurant to the plan. Given the vast footprint and scale of this building, do you honestly think that's changing the "presence". Not to mention the disincentive to invest private money in Rivers, when your commercially competing within a city-supported non-profit down the street

The hill to die on for amazing pedestrian spaces isn't going to be BMO Centre/stampede park...save your energy for the EC and development to the west and north of it

Or, you were foolish enough to think the Rivers District Master Plan actually carried some weight when handing over half a billion dollars of public money:
View attachment 522435

Note the ground floor retail potion highlighed that was supposed to line Stampede Trail, the mixed use, active festival street.

I mean aside from a large public gathering plaza at the corner, sure looks like the plan is being followed...not sure what ur point is. 17th was never supposed to have retail, and so it doesnt!!

 

[Roaring Flames]

Or, you were foolish enough to think the Rivers District Master Plan actually carried some weight when handing over half a billion dollars of public money:
View attachment 522435

Note the ground floor retail potion highlighed that was supposed to line Stampede Trail, the mixed use, active festival street.

The bit of 4th Street south of 15th Ave was always going to be the hardest sell for retail considering your in the middle of nowhere with nobody living there. It makes sense to cut off the festival street at 15th Ave where apartments and condos can be built. Where the Saddledome is currently will likely end up as an expansion of the parking lot wasteland unfortunately.

 

[Tothewest]

Huh? Are you suggesting that Nashville and Vegas are like, pedestrian meccas?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. I'll assume you're not, and remind you that nashville's is 2 blocks off broadway (insanely busy), next to one of the busiest arenas in the world. If that has no street presence...it doesnt hold much hope for anyone else. The job of these buildings is to bring lots of people to calgary, let private industry handle and invest in the rest (eat, live, work)

 

[Tothewest]

I really encourage you to visit other cities in the world, ones where you don't need to rent a car to get around.

try and exist in our reality, a convention centre isnt going to change our culture

If your baseline for pedestrian friendly cities is Nashville and Vegas? Oh boy.

2 of the busiest foot traffic cities in north america but anyway...

Private industry doesn't decide where the roads go or what sort of businesses can line them. The role of the municipal government is to design safe and interesting streets.

I don't see why we should ever give a pass to elected officials who make bad choices.

Want to attract more people to Calgary? Design public spaces they want to visit. No one wants to spend time hanging around parking lots. Least of all tourists.

what bad choice was made? they already had to curve 17th to accomodate BMO...any addition of retail would just eliminate the road entirely.

 

[CBBarnett]

This area is WITHIN stampede park, surrounded by parking. who is using these restaurants/stores M-F? Ever been to the east end of 17th? It's a deadzone. Stampede trail and the area to the north of the EC are the only locations that have a shot at being successful commercially...because people will work and live around it

I mean, but the whole point is that your statement is exactly opposite to what the sales pitch was of the project, Stampede Park, the 17th Avenue extension, even the arena has been saying it will do as part of the justifcation for such high levels of public subsidy. All this effort and a billion dollars of public money was supposed to, in part, make it so the area didn't suck and wasn't a dead zone.

This is the main reason why I have been highly suspicious and critical of most of these plans since the beginning - I was not convinced it was going to work. But as things are coming together, these projects aren't seemingly going to even clear that bar - they literally are planning for it to not work through design, layout and land use decisions throughout this whole area.

I have this said before but am increasingly convinced - all this effort and cost, and we are heading for a 2020s version of what we already have. Shiny and nice, sure, but the same old parking wasteland for 355 days a year.

 

[CBBarnett]

2 of the busiest foot traffic cities in north america but anyway...

Can you provide a source for this statement about Nashville and Vegas?

 

[konradiical]

Nashville and Vegas are not the 2 busiest foot-traffic cities. They have 2 world-famous streets that are very busy for tourist reasons, but people in general are not walking around everywhere in their day-to-day lives like Vancouver, Chicago, Seattle, Montreal, New York and so on.

Calgary also has a lot of foot traffic if you count the Stampede, but it doesn't mean it is a very walkable city.

 

[Chinook Arch]

Sounds like you haven't been to a well designed convention centre. This is what the interface with 17th at the SW corner of the building should look like. Instead we got a massive precast brick wall. It's just lazy design.

I wouldn’t call the Vancouver one a well designed convention center. Outside of that tiny patio, there’s little difference from the BMO centre. In many ways, I like the BMO centre better than the Vancouver convention centre.
I don’t know why everybody is in a huff about retail at the BMO center. That’s not what these buildings are designed for, and any retail they did have likely wouldn’t do well unless the convention centre was on an busy street outside of Stampede Park, and even then probably wouldn’t do very well.
I do think they could’ve had better articulation on that brick wall though. A couple of entrance ways, and some windows would do the trick.

 

[darwink]

Retail lost money for the city on Stephen Ave under the current one.

 

[AJX]

Sounds like you haven't been to a well designed convention centre. This is what the interface with 17th at the SW corner of the building should look like. Instead we got a massive precast brick wall. It's just lazy design.

Outside of Vancouver’s frontage being on the harbour, there’s nothing particularly better about it and it’s no less sterile than any other convention center I’ve been to.
As far as retail goes, convention centres are exactly what they are, convention centers. Expectations the building will be more than that are lofty. I’d rather see retail along Stampede Trail and into Victoria Park, than on the building itself.

 

[Tothewest]

I mean, but the whole point is that your statement is exactly opposite to what the sales pitch was of the project, Stampede Park, the 17th Avenue extension, even the arena has been saying it will do as part of the justifcation for such high levels of public subsidy. All this effort and a billion dollars of public money was supposed to, in part, make it so the area didn't suck and wasn't a dead zone.

This is the main reason why I have been highly suspicious and critical of most of these plans since the beginning - I was not convinced it was going to work. But as things are coming together, these projects aren't seemingly going to even clear that bar - they literally are planning for it to not work through design, layout and land use decisions throughout this whole area.

I have this said before but am increasingly convinced - all this effort and cost, and we are heading for a 2020s version of what we already have. Shiny and nice, sure, but the same old parking wasteland for 355 days a year.

What part was actually pitched and hasn't been realized? The rivers plan clearly outlined what would go where, and it's been followed so far minus an increase in land for the EC. Nobody ever said stampede was changing, how can it? What was promised was a 17th extension to connect the rivers and stampede to the beltline, which was landlocked by the LRT....and expanded BMO Centre...development of stampede trail...and development of the EC and lands around the EC. Nowhere did they promise any kind of commercial development along or south of 17th

We can banter about the BMO design aesthetics, that's a fair and fun game

Nashville and Vegas are not the 2 busiest foot-traffic cities. They have 2 world-famous streets that are very busy for tourist reasons, but people in general are not walking around everywhere in their day-to-day lives like Vancouver, Chicago, Seattle, Montreal, New York and so on.

Calgary also has a lot of foot traffic if you count the Stampede, but it doesn't mean it is a very walkable city.

for the purpose of this conversation, about a convention center, where in both those cities the CC is in close proximity to heavy tourist foot traffic 12 months a year, every day...if they have no retail presence, there must be an economic/functional reason for it

 

[AJX]

Want to attract more people to Calgary? Design public spaces they want to visit. No one wants to spend time hanging around parking lots. Least of all tourists.

Agreed, but is the BMO centre where the focus should be?
We are doing that by building up the rivers, pathways and parks. Projects like refreshing Stephen Ave Mall, or the latest plan to upgrade the river section near Louise bridge or smaller projects like Humpty Hollow Park are the kinds of things that we should be doing.

 

[darwink]

Outside of Vancouver’s frontage being on the harbour, there’s nothing particularly better about it and it’s no less sterile than any other convention center I’ve been to.
As far as retail goes, convention centres are exactly what they are, convention centers. Expectations the building will be more than that are lofty. I’d rather see retail along Stampede Trail and into Victoria Park, than on the building itself.

I'm sure there are other examples, but the only one I have personally experienced as having a great retail experience was Philedelphia, where they built the convention centre (in 1995) in the old Reading Railroad Terminal and trainshed directly above the Reading Terminal Market which opened in 1893.

It would be fantastically expensive (though brilliant) to attempt to replicate.

 

[Tothewest]

Agreed, but is the BMO centre where the focus should be?
We are doing that by building up the rivers, pathways and parks. Projects like refreshing Stephen Ave Mall, or the latest plan to upgrade the river section near Louise bridge or smaller projects like Humpty Hollow Park are the kinds of things that we should be doing.

This! And I do think Rivers/Stam Trail has the potential with the EC to create a pretty cool area if done properly. but we havent got to that stage yet