[trtcttc]

I feel like his video doesn't really address the core argument why CT chose low floor for the Centre St corridor. Centre St is very space-constrained, and high floor platforms would extend the length of each platform significantly, raising station construction costs and causing more neighborhood disruption. I could be convinced that the benefits of high floor on design & maintenance outweigh the negatives, but I'd need to see a full picture comparison between the options.

His video kind of ignores Centre street and that it’ll be more like a tramway/streetcar in that portion, unlike Calgary’s other lines running more like a metro system. But we see that with the high floor design, 7th ave is more of a transit corridor than a vibrant main street. Centre is also quite well positioned for this kind of development since there’s lots of TOD opportunities along the route vs stroads which are too wide to be pedestrian friendly.

Also not sure if I agree on the speed. Berlin runs an extensive tram network using low-floor trams (similar model as Toronto/EDM Valley) that are tramways in the city and grade separated/higher speed in the suburbs. Rode the system a couple years back and in the suburban areas it runs at speeds comparable to Calgary’s LRT. Many European cities have similar tramways that serve both functions with low floor LRVs

 

[accord1999]

His video kind of ignores Centre street and that it’ll be more like a tramway/streetcar in that portion, unlike Calgary’s other lines running more like a metro system. But we see that with the high floor design, 7th ave is more of a transit corridor than a vibrant main street. Centre is also quite well positioned for this kind of development since there’s lots of TOD opportunities along the route vs stroads which are too wide to be pedestrian friendly.

I think the designed length of the Green Line trains is too long for that happen. Most of the European trams use rolling stock of 30-40m length in total, while the Portland LRT that councillors went to visit only uses two car-sets that don't exceed 61m in length (and its streetcar is only 20m long).

If Green Line North ever gets built, then 3-unit 125m long trains running every 5-8 minutes stopping at 150m long stations will be a major detriment to making Centre Street a main street. It is at odds with needing the Green Line to be a major commuter line that replaces all of the buses that come down Centre Street N pre-COVID from the communities north of Beddington Trail.

 

[darwink]

I feel like his video doesn't really address the core argument why CT chose low floor for the Centre St corridor. Centre St is very space-constrained, and high floor platforms would extend the length of each platform significantly, raising station construction costs and causing more neighborhood disruption. I could be convinced that the benefits of high floor on design & maintenance outweigh the negatives, but I'd need to see a full picture comparison between the options.

The extra cost of high floor for street level stations (maybe 5 million a station) is more than made up in the hundreds of millions extra for longer underground stations for longer trains and for more train sets needed to handle the same capacity. Not even counting the cost of slower service due to longer dwell time And worse internal circulation.

That being said, the decision has been made and the decision isn’t going to make the project much worse. if the contractor and the project office and CAF decide during project development it will save money to shift entirely without costing time, especially if they encounter math which shows the project could see way more risk if they don’t shift, I would hope the project would change.

 

[trtcttc]

If Green Line North ever gets built, then 3-unit 125m long trains running every 5-8 minutes stopping at 150m long stations will be a major detriment to making Centre Street a main street.

I did not realize they were running 3 car trains for the green line. The LRT in Toronto will be max 90m and they’re starting at 60, Ottawa’s train is at about 100m, both low floor. Existing C-Train are just over 100m at 4 car operation. At 125m the green line will be close to the Toronto line 1 subway, which is 137m. You’re right at this length and size of station at street level, we’re getting another commuter rail.

 

[badc0ffee]

I looked up the Toronto platform lengths, which are 152 m (500 ft) for line 1 and 155 m for line 4. You are right that the line 1 trains are 137 m; line 4 are 92 m.

I'm also not sure they're running 3-car trains (of the 42-metre Urbos vehicles) for the green line. I don't think I've seen that confirmed? I would have guessed 2-car and 90 m platforms, so the platform can fit on a typical north-south block.

 

[whatchyyc]

I looked up the Toronto platform lengths, which are 152 m (500 ft) for line 1 and 155 m for line 4. You are right that the line 1 trains are 137 m; line 4 are 92 m.

I'm also not sure they're running 3-car trains (of the 42-metre Urbos vehicles) for the green line. I don't think I've seen that confirmed? I would have guessed 2-car and 90 m platforms, so the platform can fit on a typical north-south block.

AFAIK it's going to be 2 car platforms provisioned for 3

 

[accord1999]

For Stage 1 and its limited ridership, it'll be two-cars trains. But even with 5 minute headways, that peak capacity isn't that high.

That's barely enough for NC trips 15 years ago and well below the capacity needed for the predicted number of NC transit trips at 1.5 million population that were made in the past.

 

[CBBarnett]

A lot of this might be moot - with the rising construction costs and the staged phasing, I could see a pause at 7th Ave or Eau Claire then another decade of reimagining the Centre Street corridor.

high-floor / low-floor, at-grade or not - lots of options are available to create all the capacity we need …. Assuming we actually 100% prioritize train movements over vehicles.

 

[whatchyyc]

Just to change things up I was skimming through a city TOD report from last year with some interesting details

 

[CalgaryTiger]

Just a reminder... from the Green Line website:

"In May 2023 Green Line entered the Development Phase with Bow Transit Connectors (BTC). During this 16-month phase, Green Line and BTC will advance the design, understand risks, determine project cost and schedule.

Main construction of Phase 1, Shepard to Eau Claire, is on track to begin in 2024."

My math tells me we're about a year from main construction beginning and seven years from operational trains. This thread has only just begun.

 

[zagox]

A lot of this might be moot - with the rising construction costs and the staged phasing, I could see a pause at 7th Ave or Eau Claire then another decade of reimagining the Centre Street corridor.

high-floor / low-floor, at-grade or not - lots of options are available to create all the capacity we need …. Assuming we actually 100% prioritize train movements over vehicles.

The Green Line team has already basically announced that they are pausing at Eau Claire, short of a construction cost miracle. From the Green Line website:

"Green Line is focused on Phase 1 of the project, from Shepard to Eau Claire. The Green Line Board is committed to managing costs and risks. Should costs of escalation and other risks not materialize during Phase 1, the Board will make a decision on timing and direction for Phase 2. The timeline for that decision has not been set."

 

[accord1999]

The Green Line team has already basically announced that they are pausing at Eau Claire, short of a construction cost miracle. From the Green Line website:

I look forward to next year when it becomes official and council and LRT On the Green gets mad about it for a few days and then a week later change their minds and say the new (new, new) Stage 1 is still a good start, builds the most important and hardest part of the line, none of the previous LRT lines were built all at once and how good BRT is going to be for NC Calgary.

 

[lemongrab]

I mean if they aren't crossing the river they might as well stop at 7th and let those folks keep their homes as long as possible. There is a housing crisis afterall...

 

[badc0ffee]

We need the Eau Claire station because that will ensure a maximally sized Transit Oriented Dirt Lot.

 

[CBBarnett]

I am on one of the design teams for the development phase. The goal is 30% detailed design by end of 2023. 60% designs by spring 2024. We're busy.

On a high level, between Eau Claire and Shepard there are:
- 7-8 bridges
- a mix of cut & cover and bored tunnel through downtown
- a storage and maintenance facility

Awesome, thanks for the update. Any timelines when the next batch of information will be made public on designs/renderings etc?