[Tropical]

My immediate thought when I saw the Province muck with the alignment? If I lived in the Beltline, I would be absolutely gutted that the Centre Street stop was axed. This cuts so much utility in a the best example of pedestrian realm on the prairies.

 

[darwink]

My immediate thought when I saw the Province muck with the alignment? If I lived in the Beltline, I would be absolutely gutted that the Centre Street stop was axed. This cuts so much utility in a the best example of pedestrian realm on the prairies.

Is it $200 million + of utility though?

You draw 600m walk sheds, and you only add a maybe 5 blocks of area (the green area) within 600m of a stop?

I get that it feels like a big change. Which is why we draw to see if our feelings match what would be on the ground.

It's like how a lot of people have internalized 20 years of low floor LRV talk and believe the outcomes they produce are way better. But when we start digging, it is a pretty meh story at least for mass transit. (streetcars is a different story). For low floor, I posit another theory why they're preferred: they're more expensive, and require more specialized replacement parts still covered by patents instead of manufacturable in a capable machine shop.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

We're one week away from finding out how much sunk cost is in this thing. I wonder how much will be reconsidered... From what I see about the second meeting with the city and the province at the end of last week is there's nothing the city can do to satisfy the province. The province wants to take over this project. Maybe they see an easy win because they can do the cheaper thing downtown, elevate it, and that savings alone will make it go further south. The province says to SETON and I guess if they're willing to pay for it, fill your boots Danielle. It will be the whole, "what they couldn't do in 10 years, we did in four months." I really do think it is that simple. I don't see them moving away from low floor, going to BRT, or even going north.

 

[lemongrab]

Yeah. You could do either one. That's the beauty of maintaining the same rolling stock of LRT cars. You could run the red line under 8th and the SE-LRT on 7th ave. Or vice-a-versa. Mix and match.

The only problem is that the 8th ave subway is going to be ridiculously expensive. That's why I think stage one of the 8th ave subway/SE-LRT would only have stations at City Hall and Centre street. It would be a stub-line. Having a station at Centre street is still central enough for most people to walk to.

Is it though? It can be about 2km of shallow cut and cover, and the disruption cost is also minimal (compared to say 11 Ave).

I don't think you'd do a station at Centre St...but I think there is an interesting question here: if you were designing the 8th Ave subway with absolutely zero consideration to the Green Line ever existing (or say the assumption was GL would be on 7th Ave instead of 2nd St), where would you put the stations? I'm thinking the answer probably isn't 4-5 stations within 1.6km, as is currently the case for each direction on 7th, but rather:

1. City Hall, 5th Street, 5th Ave* (~1km apart)
or
2. City Hall, 2nd Street, 7th Street, 5th Ave* (~700m apart) *or maybe no station running N-S, though it would be nice to touch the NW corner of DT

Probably #2 for a bunch of reasons; #1 is mostly about overall speed.


But I think there is another interesting question to ask: should all of the 8th Ave stations be underground? I'm not convinced that underground is the better option operationally, without even considering costs. It can be a bit worse from a mobility standpoint. Protection from elements is nice, but can also attract an undesirable element...

I think you could limit it to a single cross-street interaction with a minor road (7th St, 2nd or 1st St). And you keep the tracks 35" below street level, so you're not actually building new platforms. Downside is you'd never really be able to expand to 5 car trains, but I think the better answer will always be frequency.

It probably only makes sense around ~7th street, but I'd imagine there are some benefits like managing HVAC for slightly shorter tunnel sections than one massive system

Olympic Plaza should certainly be underground...it is kind of a shame they're tearing up Olympic Plaza soon seemingly without any consideration of the future station.

 

[darwink]

We're one week away from finding out how much sunk cost is in this thing

The below by my estimation includes the potential break fee for the LRV order, as committed cost did not jump a huge amount with the CAF order was signed.

From June:

Owner’s Costs: Include City of Calgary Staff Time, Communications, Software, and General Corporate Overheads and Inter- Business Unit costs.
Design & Engineering: Includes all OE costs as well as general Project Consultants costs.
Construction, Land & Other Assets: Includes Land, Enabling Works, and Quick Win build costs.
Bus Rapid Transit: Includes all costs related to the Bus Rapid Transit work for Green Line.

Committed Costs represent issued PO values only for Design & Engineering and Construction, Land & Other Assets. For Owner’s Costs and Bus Rapid Transit these are primarily costs incurred to date.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

The below by my estimation includes the potential break fee for the LRV order, as committed cost did not jump a huge amount with the CAF order was signed.

From June:
View attachment 595247

Owner’s Costs: Include City of Calgary Staff Time, Communications, Software, and General Corporate Overheads and Inter- Business Unit costs.
Design & Engineering: Includes all OE costs as well as general Project Consultants costs.
Construction, Land & Other Assets: Includes Land, Enabling Works, and Quick Win build costs.
Bus Rapid Transit: Includes all costs related to the Bus Rapid Transit work for Green Line.

Committed Costs represent issued PO values only for Design & Engineering and Construction, Land & Other Assets. For Owner’s Costs and Bus Rapid Transit these are primarily costs incurred to date.

Great breakdown. I believe part of the back and forth between the two orders of government is who is going to pay for this.

I can see the city for sure paying for the Owner's Cost and BRT but I can see an argument for why the province should pay for a large portion of the other items.

The Design and Engineering (south of the Elbow) can be used, so the city should be compensated for that?
Some of the Construction, Land and Other Assets can be used, like the landfill rehabilitation and work in Ogden. I do not think the city will be compensated for the utility relocation downtown, the townhomes in Eau Claire or the Mustard Seed on 11 Ave as I don't see the province's alignment requiring that work. Which does mean the city now owns some prime-ish land in Eau Claire and the Old Mustard Seed.

 

[Red Star]

Is it though? It can be about 2km of shallow cut and cover, and the disruption cost is also minimal (compared to say 11 Ave).

I highly (and respectfully) disagree. I think every building owner and CRU along Stephen Ave. would be up in arm about the disruption. Rightfully so. The construction disruption would be a massive blow to the urban realm in downtown...even if it is worth it in the long run.

 

[Red Star]

Has the city abandoned 4 car trains? As soon as they added them to 7th, it was completely overwhelmed. Haven't noticed many since the downturn / covid.

I think CT only running 3 car C-trains until the Haysboro storage facility expansion is complete.

 

[CBBarnett]

Stephen Ave has three destination clusters and should have 3 stations only. Keep the trains moving and minimize uber-expensive below-ground stations. It's a paradigm shift for Calgary Transit that has this weird reverse German-style LRT system - the slowest part is downtown with the closest stops at-grade, where most German cities do the opposite where the only grade-separated part is downtown with the fewer stops.

Following that logic there's only 3 required stations at 3 destination clusters. Build to 4 car trains, don't future-proof to 5 to save money. That's still 100m of train station and huge capacity if you grade-separate to up the speed and flow of Red Line trains. Many metro systems are around that length, 100m is not a toy train.


These three stations would be ~750m apart each.

Century Gardens Station (Stephen Ave between 8th and 7th Street SW):

• Highest density residential cluster in region
• West interchange to Blue line across the park above ground
• Busiest pedestrian flows from Beltline on 8th Street SW

City Centre Station (Stephen Ave between 3rd and 2nd Street SW):

• Highest density highest density office cluster in region
• The Core mall and main hub of Plus-15 Stations
• Easy walk to 1st Street SW for Beltline and 7th Ave Blue line stations

Olympic Plaza (built into the plaza)

• Highest density art/culture/events hub in region
• East interchange station with blue line across plaza

You build those three and keep the Red Line moving fast and reliably through the core and you've unlock some substantial capacity on 7th as well as shaving 5+ minutes off each of the 75,000 daily Red Line commutes. Essentially start converting Red Line into a metro-style system in the core.

 

[thecivilengineer]

Silly thought but if we are planning underground shouldn't we make it more capable to use that for all the lines and make 7th ave for street cars kind of for specific D/T use only.

 

[badc0ffee]

I think every building owner and CRU along Stephen Ave. would be up in arm about the disruption

If it can be done while keeping sidewalks open on both sides (the excavation is dead centre in the middle of 8 Ave), I'm not sure they would. Stephen Ave doesn't depend on cars driving by or parking, just pedestrians.

 

[accord1999]

Silly thought but if we are planning underground shouldn't we spend more capable to use that for all the lines and make 7th ave for street cars kind of for specific D/T use only.

I wonder if there's a reluctance to move trains to 8th Avenue because 7th Avenue is closer to the central heart of DT Calgary and the ground-level stations makes it more convenient to hop-on and off a train.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

The city can say to the businesses on 8th Ave, "you haven't truly operated retail business on Calgary's main streets until we've ripped up the sidewalks and street in front of your business". Survive that and you can survive anything. See 17th Ave, 33rd and 34th Ave, etc.

hop-on and off a train

It is very convenient at rush hour to know it's not much more than 2 minutes between trains. Moving the red line off 7th, you lose this, in 2040 Calgary you could do a smaller LRT vehicle that just runs up and down 7th between Blue Line trains.

 

[Tothewest]

This may come across as too simplistic, but i generally agree that the solution comes with some re-organization of station stops on 7th for all lines, perhaps making dual stations at the same location. The goal is to get as many people to the core as possible, even if that means a stop is sacrificed for red/blue. Perfect, no, but $6B is insane money so any existing alignment or plan should be considered null and void, unless that same money gets us the distance every expects. Scrap the tunnels, accept raised lines, move forward

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

For low floor, I posit another theory why they're preferred: they're more expensive, and require more specialized replacement parts still covered by patents instead of manufacturable in a capable machine shop.

That's definitely an interesting caveat to the low floor trains. Was that disclosed in any of the reports to council, or is it something you discovered from your own research?