[DougB]

It would be a mistake is because using Nose Creek turns the north leg into more of a commuter/go train type system.
Nobody would be able to walk to the stations. They’d have to drive to them or take buses to them.
I don’t believe travel time will be a problem. If it’s a street car running 50 km an hour, that’s still much better than today with the bus running 20 km an hour that we have right now.

I’m not saying running it up Centre Street would be perfect but to run it through nose Creek doesn’t really make sense to me it. It’s a rail line in the middle of nowhere that everybody has to drive to. There’s also no real potential to develop nodes around the station if they’re in nose Creek not near as much potential as there is along centre Street.

Couldn't the entirety of Greenview Indutrial, Fox Hollow Golf Course and municipal Spring Gardens sites to redeveloped into tens of thousands of units. Could also addin the planned Midfield redevelopment.

LRT up Centre is a pipe dream. If the estimate to build 7 stations from Eau Claire to Lynwood, much of through easy to contruct freight rail corridors and industrial areas, is $7B what would a line up Centre cost? Probably $5B plus.

 

[Always_Biking]

I couldn’t agree more with Chinook arch. We don’t need to be building a go train for the people in Sage Hill.
Building a line through Nose Creek Valley doesn’t serve anybody except for the people at the far end of the city.

 

[AJX]

Couldn't the entirety of Greenview Indutrial, Fox Hollow Golf Course and municipal Spring Gardens sites to redeveloped into tens of thousands of units. Could also addin the planned Midfield redevelopment.

You could eventually develop those areas into TOD’s but they already have existing businesses and uses. It would be easier to develop TOD‘s along centre Street and the TODs would be 100% more desirable than Greenview industrial and Springland Gardens.
More importantly, there are already people living near Centre Street.

 

[Tothewest]

A one time saving of $1.8B, but now the train line doesn't go downtown, won't go to the north, and will overload the red and blue lines. You also need to take into account the long term costs of lower ridership on all three lines and the headache/costs of inevitably trying to fix it one day.

The only details we know at this point is what they ARENT doing, which is tunneling. Everything else is pure speculation, including how it will get to downtown, and how people will transfer from there.

I couldn’t agree more with Chinook arch. We don’t need to be building a go train for the people in Sage Hill.
Building a line through Nose Creek Valley doesn’t serve anybody except for the people at the far end of the city.

The north central green line is probably decades and decades away at best, and possibly completely unaffordable. So we're left with an option that has an soon to be Airport Line that may be only 3-5 years away on that alignment, would adding 2-3 stops in the valley not make some sense? The $250M cost to build those stations may be a good spend for the 50 year interim. Probably 80% of users at LRT stops north of 16th, south of Macleod, and west of Sarcee drive or take a bus anyway to the stations, they don't walk, so this wouldn't be that different

 

[accord1999]

I’m not saying running it up Centre Street would be perfect but to run it through nose Creek doesn’t really make sense to me it. It’s a rail line in the middle of nowhere that everybody has to drive to. There’s also no real potential to develop nodes around the station if they’re in nose Creek not near as much potential as there is along centre Street.

Have you looked at some of the parts of the SE? It also runs through the middle of places that few people live that everybody has to drive to and from. But for some reason, that's never a big deal for it. Meanwhile NC LRT has do both high transit ridership, have every station be within range of substantial population, go through every possible spot for TOD and re-development but is also given the lowest priority and no funding.

I couldn’t agree more with Chinook arch. We don’t need to be building a go train for the people in Sage Hill.
Building a line through Nose Creek Valley doesn’t serve anybody except for the people at the far end of the city.

It works the exact same as the SE LRT. It has to go through a portion of transit wasteland in order to reach further suburbs with commuters. It even works better than the SE because by taking off these northern commuters from the existing DT heading bus routes, it also improves the experience of transit users living south of Beddington Trail because the buses won't be as overloaded anymore. How many morning 301s are already crowded by the time they reach Beddington and Huntington?

And with Calgary's rapid growth, the far north has become substantial in its own right with some of the most populated communities in the entire city, and Carrington, Livingston, and Lewiston being developed to add tens of thousands of new residents. The theoretical 144th Avenue station area that was empty field 10 years has already seen its surroundings developed.

 

[badc0ffee]

Isn't Centre St N far less risky for tunnelling than downtown? It's up out of the river valley, well above the water table, so tracks could enter the escarpment, stay level in the tunnel, and then emerge just north of 20 Ave or something, sort of like the LRT bridge in Edmonton. Or, is it just tunnelling in general we have to avoid?

 

[Beltline_B]

I agree with what others have said about the train going to the deep SE, it runs through areas with low population, and if it were up to me, I would have the southeast leg go as far as Quarry Park and end there initially.
The difference with the SE compared to Nose Creek is at the middle vein of the south (which is somewhat comparable to Calgary’s north central vein) is already covered by the redline, so in order to get to the SE which has been growing a lot they need to and extend a line out to it or use the existing red line and have a spur ti the SE but that’s a whole other story.
As far as the north central goes, I believe Nose Creek would be a mistake. Central Street makes more sense and yes, it would be more costly, but we’re doing this for the future. I’d rather do what makes sense even if it costs more.

 

[MichaelS]

It would be a mistake is because using Nose Creek turns the north leg into more of a commuter/go train type system.
Nobody would be able to walk to the stations. They’d have to drive to them or take buses to them.
I don’t believe travel time will be a problem. If it’s a street car running 50 km an hour, that’s still much better than today with the bus running 20 km an hour that we have right now.

I’m not saying running it up Centre Street would be perfect but to run it through nose Creek doesn’t really make sense to me it. It’s a rail line in the middle of nowhere that everybody has to drive to. There’s also no real potential to develop nodes around the station if they’re in nose Creek not near as much potential as there is along centre Street.

So in other words, it would have the same characteristics as our current LRT lines, which lead to us having the most successful LRT system in North America (apart from maybe NYC), where operating it actually generated a profit, allowing us to offer even better bus service for the rest of the network? Yeah... good thing we decided not to replicate that model.....

And if generating TOD is one of the key criteria of this whole program, wouldn't it just be easier for the City to put a "for sale" sign up on 50% of our park and ride lots, and encourage TOD that way? We would capture thousands and thousands of units in potential TOD, without having to spend a dime on a new train.

 

[accord1999]

Isn't Centre St N far less risky for tunnelling than downtown? It's up out of the river valley, well above the water table, so tracks could enter the escarpment, stay level in the tunnel, and then emerge just north of 20 Ave or something, sort of like the LRT bridge in Edmonton. Or, is it just tunnelling in general we have to avoid?

That's the section of tunnel they already cut in 2020. There's more details in my post at #2510.

 

[Beltline_B]

So in otherwords, it would have the same characteristics as our current LRT lines, which lead to us having the most successful LRT system in North America (apart from maybe NYC), where operating it actually generated a profit, allowing us to offer even better bus service for the rest of the network? Yeah... good thing we decided not to replicate that model.....

A route through Nose Creek wouldn’t have the same characteristics as why the other lines. Not in any way really, the closest similarity would be some parts of the initial redline to the south where it goes through some industrial areas, but there are no similarities with the other lines.

 

[badc0ffee]

That's the section of tunnel they already cut in 2020. There's more details in my post at #2510.

Right, but they were trying to preserve the downtown tunnel above all else. Now that we preusmably have a better idea of the costs, and we know the downtown tunnel is not justifiable, can we also say the same about the north tunnel that was cut first? Like, maybe cutting the downtown tunnel saves $2 billion and adding the north tunnel only adds $1 billion.

 

[MichaelS]

A route through Nose Creek wouldn’t have the same characteristics as why the other lines. Not in any way really, the closest similarity would be some parts of the initial redline to the south where it goes through some industrial areas, but there are no similarities with the other lines.

A line that offers a fast, direct connection to downtown employment for people who live in the suburbs. Stations of the line are accessed typically with feeder route buses or by driving via a park and ride lot. Sounds a lot like our other lines to me. I don't think Crowchild Trail is a particularly walkable environment, nor is Memorial Drive / 36th Street.

 

[Tothewest]

Right, but they were trying to preserve the downtown tunnel above all else. Now that we preusmably have a better idea of the costs, and we know the downtown tunnel is not justifiable, can we also say the same about the north tunnel that was cut first? Like, maybe cutting the downtown tunnel saves $2 billion and adding the north tunnel only adds $1 billion.

Well the Beltline tunnel was a $400M hit. Keep in mind the vast land purchases required as well for stations/access/parking on Centre....this would likely be the most expensive leg of them all by a long shot, not to mention the road being closed for a long, long time. Better off looking at a BRT system on that road.

The most comparable example to develop the NC Green Line, would be the West Valley Line in Edmonton, running on an existing urban road (albeit not as busy or economically vibrant as Centre St), with mostly at grade and some elevated sections, no tunnels. $2.8B in 2020 dollars. We would lose atleast 2 if not 3 lanes of vehicle traffic. I'll let you determine how much those costs are now.

Hate on the Nose Creek option all you want, but it very well could be the only option.

 

[Chinook Arch]

So in other words, it would have the same characteristics as our current LRT lines, which lead to us having the most successful LRT system in North America (apart from maybe NYC), where operating it actually generated a profit, allowing us to offer even better bus service for the rest of the network? Yeah... good thing we decided not to replicate that model.....

And if generating TOD is one of the key criteria of this whole program, wouldn't it just be easier for the City to put a "for sale" sign up on 50% of our park and ride lots, and encourage TOD that way? We would capture thousands and thousands of units in potential TOD, without having to spend a dime on a new train.

I don’t see the the Nose Hill route as having the same characteristics as the other lines. All of the other lines, with the exception of the Red line’s Erlton to Chinook, pass through areas populated with businesses, people, schools, malls etc. As far as I can tell the Nose Creek route wouldn’t pass in close proximity to any of those things.
I agree fully about the city selling existing lots to turn into TODs, but we shouldn’t repeat mistakes of the past, which is another reason I don’t like the Nose Creek route.
TODs on a centre line would pop up easily without needing the city’s involvement because there won’t be any park and rides. Developers can start building as soon as the line is running or even before it’s finished.

 

[Tothewest]

TODs on a centre line would pop up easily without needing the city’s involvement because there won’t be any park and rides. Developers can start building as soon as the line is running or even before it’s finished.

TOD expectations become problematic when the area is already dense and developed, Centre St isnt Heritage, Westbrook, or Brentwood. By not having Park and Ride's, especially north of 16th ave, we're gonna spend a lot of money for not a lot of riders....below is West LRT in 2014 2 years after it opened...Shaganappi Point, yikes.