Go Elevated or try for Underground?

  • Work with the province and go with the Elevated option

    Votes: 25 71.4%
  • Try another approach and go for Underground option

    Votes: 7 20.0%
  • Cancel it altogether

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • Go with a BRT solution

    Votes: 2 5.7%

  • Total voters
    35
Is there even enough room to sink the green line between where the existing 201 tunnel is and MacLeod?

It might almost make more sense to cut and cover MacLeod. Over 2nd st SE, under 1st St SE? Maybe elevated to subway? How much ROW can we take from CPR? Maybe MacLeod (1st and 2nd St SE) becomes 2-way? I don't know...
 
It shouldn't be too much to ask :) I would think that good planning is what's it's mostly about rather than cost. One of the underground stations in downtown Sydney was well done. I remember several entrances coming off the street into buildings as if entering into a mall. A large wide open entrance that had shops on the street, and shops on the inside of the entrance. You walked in and eventually you realized you were in a subway station, but it didn't seem obvious at first.

Many European and a few American stations do it well too. All I'm looking for is a seamless integration with built form, retail, and pedestrian corridors in all 4 compass directions in 3 dimensions. Too much to ask?

Here's a quick link to give you an idea of what metro stations are like in many parts of the world - "station" is synonymous with "mall", even in distant suburbs and smaller cities:
http://web-japan.org/trends/09_lifestyle/lif110120.html

What I (cynically) expect we'll get is a concrete stair and tunnel with only 1 or 2 entrances. Really, a station under 2nd St between 7th and 9th Ave could have as many as 12 entrance (or 6 split entrances), and direct connections to the future 8th Ave subway, 7th Ave ctrain corridor, CORE shopping, and possibly interior connections to other private properties. AND, the corridor and platforms should enable retail, food vendors, buskers, and public art. This really ought be the model for a future downtown stations (especially GreenLine Eau Claire, Green Stephen Ave, Red 5th St, Red 2nd Ave, Red Olympic Plaza - speculating on station names) and any future TOD projects. Imagine restaurants, shops, fitness facilities/gyms, daycares, and office lobbies right at the edge of the platform. And, most importantly, unimpeded connection from one mode of travel to another in any direction.

One reason I really like the way 7th Ave is set up is that there are no barriers (stairs, doors, tunnels, turnstiles, narrow corridors) to access the platform. But while it's easy for an at-grade station to blend seamlessly with the city, Calgarians might not realize some of the problems that commonly irk the success of underground stations (crowds, minutes added to commutes waiting in lines, poor ventilation, poor handicap access, poor lines of vision, perception of danger, poor lighting, poor pedestrian environments at grade, etc).

We've learned a lot since Toronto opened its subway in 1954 (and expanded in 1966); London's Tube has been a work in progress since 1863, Paris's Metro since 1900, and NYC Subway since 1904. Other cities hold Paris, NYC, and London as examples of successful metropolises - and there are many admirable things about these cities - but technology, design, and democratic capitalism has changed a lot since these systems were built. Calgary was right to build an at-grade LRT in the '80s, rather than trying to be Montreal or Toronto. Now that the benefits of grade separation are beginning to outweigh the cost of cut-and-cover in Calgary, it's only natural that Calgary build a subway, but let's build one for 2050, not 1950. Yes, it could be a lot of work and innovation for zoning (a la bonus density) and persuading adjacent properties to buy in, but having a plan and regulations developers can count on would be a start. It would be especially great if we figured this out before the 2nd Brookfield tower is built, if it's not too late already.

All this flexibility, integration, and access is made easier by Calgary's free fare zone and progressive honour-system boarding. Let's lead, not follow.
 
I'm in favor of the underground option also. The most expensive of course, but 20-30 years down the road the price tag won't seem so like much, but we'll have made the right decision.
 
It often pays in the long run to go with the more expensive option. I look at the portion of LRT alongside the Stampede grounds and wonder why they bothered coming out of a tunnel only to go back down into one a short distance later. It must have been cheaper, but nobody thought about the longterm, and how much better it would be to have 17th ave continue right into the Stampede grounds, and how much nicer the Stampede grounds would look on Macleod trail without that big menacing wall bordered by train tracks.
 
I'm leaning toward 12th ave. Not much there now, but there will be over the coming years, and having a station there would even help spur on the development. Either way, very happy they choose to go tunnel.
 
-shortest distance
-lowest cost
-fewest conflicts
-least barrier to neighbourhood
-better serves the East Village
-the only chance of connecting LRT to eventual HSR or regional rail
-exactly as much catchment potential
 
-shortest distance
-lowest cost
-fewest conflicts
-least barrier to neighbourhood
-better serves the East Village
-the only chance of connecting LRT to eventual HSR or regional rail
-exactly as much catchment potential

Wouldn't the catchment be better at 12th though? you're a little closer to all those tall towers along Macleod and the future projects on those empty parking lots. More tied into the Beltline.

Good point about East Village. I didn't even think of EV in the equation. On the other hand East Village would be cut off by the train tracks either way no?
 
I'm late in the game for this suggestion, but what about the LRT going down 12th as far as 4th street instead of 2nd street? A station could be at Central Memorial Park
 
@AJX I understand why those who live in the Beltline would want better c-train service, but locating a station at 1st st and 12th Ave SW does not achieve this. For everyone living west of 4th St, the nearest c-train would still be downtown, and for everyone living south of 14th Ave, the nearest c-train would still be Victoria Park. Those living north or 14th and east of 4th can easily walk to green line stations at either alignment.

Aligning the Green Line on 4th St might have been nice, but this is not on the table. Perhaps in 50 years we can consider a subway relief line through the Beltline.

A station at 4th St SE could have easy access to the East Village, and in the long run there is plenty of potential for high density residential and office development as well as regional rail service nearby.

It's also important to consider who we want to use this line the most. Moving the line to 12th instead of 10th adds a few minutes delay to overall travel time, and serves an area that already walks/bikes more than average. Yes, the Beltline deserves great transit, but connecting the deep SE is nearly an existential problem for the future of our city. The Beltline might have to settle for "good enough" - they are still getting better service, they are still gaining a ton of development potential, and in this case the "better" option for them is only slightly so at a huge cost.
 

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