Best direction for the Green line at this point?

  • Go ahead with the current option of Eau Claire to Lynbrook and phase in extensions.

    Votes: 42 60.0%

  • Re-design the whole system

    Votes: 22 31.4%

  • Cancel it altogether

    Votes: 6 8.6%
  • Total voters
    70
Mountain Man said:
I wonder if there is an opportunity to create an overpass or underpass for the road interchange there as well. Wouldn't work well for the urban vibe we want for either street...
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The road seems to function at current demand. Especially compared to pre-mid 2000s.
 
Right now (2019 traffic flow map), the busiest road the LRT crosses at grade are 58 Ave SE and 162 Ave SW, at 24000 AAWT vehicles. Also in the same range are Heritage Dr, (22K), 32nd Ave NE (20K), and Saddletowne Circle (20K). There are some grade separated crossings of roads in this volume range; 64 Ave NE (26K), 42 Ave S (25K), Canyon Meadows Dr (21K), 69 St W (17K). A grade separation was added for 45 St W, which isn't on the flow map but has roughly half the traffic of 69 St (ie roughly 8K).

Meanwhile, 16th Ave at Centre St is at 48,000 AAWT vehicles -- it would be twice as busy as the busiest road currently crossed by the LRT at grade.

That said, it's entirely possible that the existing green time NB/SB on Centre St can just be given to the train, and it would have minimal impact. It's a hard choice -- if the 16th Ave expansion hadn't created such a high-capacity car sewer through the area, maximizing traffic flow would be of lower importance. On the other hand, just because we misprioritized cars in the past doesn't mean we need to do so again today.
 
Crossing mid block, versus at an intersection makes direct comparisons more difficult, as there are more variables. Every attempt to prioritize the Green Line will interfere with 16th. The Green Line will require its own phase unless turning movements are limited. This will extend the intersection cycle time, and will leave the ~800 people per train, and people on Orange MAX waiting longer while cars take priority.
 
darwink said:
Crossing mid block, versus at an intersection makes direct comparisons more difficult, as there are more variables. Every attempt to prioritize the Green Line will interfere with 16th. The Green Line will require its own phase unless turning movements are limited. This will extend the intersection cycle time, and will leave the ~800 people per train, and people on Orange MAX waiting longer while cars take priority.
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Cars on 16th, or on Centre? If on 16th, shouldn't MAX Orange travel improve with 16th ave flow improvement?

The one case for tunneling that makes the cost possibly worth it is if both the Green Line and MAX Orange would have improved runtime as a result.
 
Joborule said:
Cars on 16th, or on Centre? If on 16th, shouldn't MAX Orange travel improve with 16th ave flow improvement?

The one case for tunneling that makes the cost possibly worth it is if both the Green Line and MAX Orange would have improved runtime as a result.
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Both would. Without the train on the surface for the intersection, you can really compress the phase/phases for Centre St's movements, since you'd have room for dual turns
 
darwink said:
The road seems to function at current demand. Especially compared to pre-mid 2000s.
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It definitely does, was just a thought.

Grade separating the green line at 16th seems like a no brainier to me, maybe a small trench like they did at 45St on the WLRT.
 
Mountain Man said:
It definitely does, was just a thought.

Grade separating the green line at 16th seems like a no brainier to me, maybe a small trench like they did at 45St on the WLRT.
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I'd like to see it completely buried, and have the station straddle 16 AVE - thus pushing it slightly more North, and to have entrances on each of the 4 corners of the intersection.

If the 16 AVE station gets built now as designed, becomes a temporary station, and then once the North extension goes ahead, it might work to keep that station open right up until the connection needs to be made.
 
googspecial said:
I'd like to see it completely buried, and have the station straddle 16 AVE - thus pushing it slightly more North, and to have entrances on each of the 4 corners of the intersection.

If the 16 AVE station gets built now as designed, becomes a temporary station, and then once the North extension goes ahead, it might work to keep that station open right up until the connection needs to be made.
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Or only closed for 3, 4 months.
 
I think there's basically four possible layouts for stations / crossings at 16th Ave:
  • At-grade crossing; the current plan. Station is at grade at 16th Ave, tracks cross 16th at grade
  • Trenched station; like 45th St W station where the station is at 16th Ave but in a trench, the tracks then cross 16th below grade
  • Deep station; the station itself is under or near 16th Ave as part of a tunnel crossing 16th Ave (closest we have is Westbrook)
  • At grade station with tunnel crossing; the station is at street level, then the train goes into a tunnel to cross 16th Ave (closest we have is Lions Park).
I don't think the latter two are very practical. The deep station is going to be orders of magnitude more expensive; building a full station under 16th Ave, with vertical circulation, platform, etc, is going to be a lot more expensive and disruptive than just the tracks. The at grade with tunnel crossing puts the station two blocks or more north or south of 16th Ave, which means there's no connection to crosstown traffic.

Here's the 45th St station:
1633554228100.png

And here's the Centre St/16th Ave plan:
1633546869311.png


The above plan is from the Centre St streetscape engagement. It could be built as a trenched station like 45th St, where the access at 14th Ave is at grade and the access at 16th Ave is down a set of stairs to the train; it's the same length as 45th St (165 m) and close to the same width -- a little narrower, but a centre platform instead of two side platforms. The 16th Ave entrance could potentially incorporate both stairs and an elevator, which would improve accessibility. (At 45th St, if you are coming from the upper side and can't use stairs, you have to go the length of the station on the sidewalk and enter from the other end).

The problem is that the station platform would be on a downslope; around 5%. As it happens, it's downhill from 45th to 47th St so the surface elevation changes and the station can be basically flat. Centre St is flat, so the station would have to slope. 5% is flat enough it's considered wheelchair accessible; the slope on Centre St up the hill from downtown is more like 8-9%. But 5% is not nothing.
 
I'd be very nervous about the Green Line RFP right now. With rising uncertaining around inflation, prepare for the bids to come in way over target.
 
Prices aren't as out of whack as the media would have you believe. Wood, concrete are back to a normal range. Steel is still out of whack, but it won't be forever. Futures for 2 years out are at prices from 3 years ago. There isn't a production--demand mismatch, only a logistics problem, one that the financiers think will take a year to fix.
1634763053833.png

A bidder, going in too high based on current steel prices, is making a gamble that no other bidder will instead bid with future prices based on probable contract close dates (when the winner will could exercise a hedge for their probable steel consumption and that of their suppliers). That would be a good way to not win.
 

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Main contract: "Preparations are underway for Phase 1 RFQ and RFP processes."
LRVs: "LRV procurement is underway. The RFQ was released in February 2019 and closed in May 2019. The contract is expected to be awarded in late 2021 and more details will be shared at that time."
Beltline and Downtown Utility Work: "Preconstruction planning started in spring 2021. Initial construction starts in fall 2021. Construction with the highest impact to residents and businesses will likely be in spring 2022"
SE Work: "Most of the projects are nearing completion for the current scope of work. Schedule analysis is underway for potential opportunities to progress further critical work."
 
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