FriendlyDrunks
Active Member
I could be wrong, but aren't low floor trains pretty quiet?
- Thread starter Surrealplaces
- Start date
Roaring Flames
Senior Member
Meikkhaell
Active Member
If sunlight/aesthetics are such a concern for an elevated line, would a steel truss rather than reinforced concrete guideway structure be an option? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as far as whether it would be any more aesthetically appealing, but it definitely would allow a lot more sunlight down to street level. Perhaps a dumb idea, as I can't think of anywhere else this has been implemented on such a large scale. Perhaps corrosion would become a concern, making it more favorable for somewhere like Vegas and not here.
I'm just spitballing at this point. Evidently, no level of government in this country knows what they're doing at the moment. Agree they should just start building the simpler sections and pray that the next iteration of governments have some fresh eyes/ideas.
I'm just spitballing at this point. Evidently, no level of government in this country knows what they're doing at the moment. Agree they should just start building the simpler sections and pray that the next iteration of governments have some fresh eyes/ideas.
Dārayavauš
Active Member
They are. Modern technology is a lot better than the L train in Chicago.
People are just being negative for the sake of being negative because it’s the calgarian way.
haltcatchfire
Senior Member
Privacy, not sound.
haltcatchfire
Senior Member
People are allowed to be rational and realistic.
Nimbus
Active Member
Well, I stand by my "not a serious" government point even more.
CBBarnett
Senior Member
I am starting to think the province isn't particularly interested in building the Green line, at least not the downtown part.
As more info leaks out, their goal seems to have been to meet the communication's objective, not build an actual train line. Their objective was complete when they drafted their consultant report that says "more trains for the same price". It was kind of irrelevant whether the thing is buildable, certain, costed reasonably etc. To their restraint it's a reasonably plausible line with the cost advantages that come from elevated, but ultimately it's a $2.5M version of an alignment of something we'd come up with in the Transit Fantasy thread. Turns out we all are good enough to get to 5% design completion
This is starting to remind me of how the Province previously had a communication's goal as the whole point on some issues. All those "blue ribbon" panels of government-friendly experts that got together for a few million in consulting dollars, then announced their findings that just happen to agree with the government's existing positions, so now they can use it as a political communications talking point.
My bet is the sides are too far apart to resolve this - not just in what they want, but in what their objectives. I think the SE to Victoria Park is what we end up with, with some future project spinning up once the dust settles to take another run at the downtown connection years into the future.
As more info leaks out, their goal seems to have been to meet the communication's objective, not build an actual train line. Their objective was complete when they drafted their consultant report that says "more trains for the same price". It was kind of irrelevant whether the thing is buildable, certain, costed reasonably etc. To their restraint it's a reasonably plausible line with the cost advantages that come from elevated, but ultimately it's a $2.5M version of an alignment of something we'd come up with in the Transit Fantasy thread. Turns out we all are good enough to get to 5% design completion
This is starting to remind me of how the Province previously had a communication's goal as the whole point on some issues. All those "blue ribbon" panels of government-friendly experts that got together for a few million in consulting dollars, then announced their findings that just happen to agree with the government's existing positions, so now they can use it as a political communications talking point.
My bet is the sides are too far apart to resolve this - not just in what they want, but in what their objectives. I think the SE to Victoria Park is what we end up with, with some future project spinning up once the dust settles to take another run at the downtown connection years into the future.
lemongrab
Active Member
At this point I think you have to consider the provincial funding dead and do what you can to secure as much of the federal funding as you can and build anything productive.
Which means BRT, because it would be incredibly foolish to build an LRT entirely predicated on future extensions in this environment where you cannot trust your funding partner(s) - federal funding is probably about to become similarly precarious.
Give the Province one last set of conditions and a deadline for their funding. When they fail to meet, draw big black X over their logo on all of the GL signs in the city. At least they'll have a scapegoat for going back to busses (though I honestly believe it would offer better service than these stub line plans before even considering the lower cost).
NDP platform needs to offer a permanent fix for transit capital projects. This ad hoc approach is garbage.
Which means BRT, because it would be incredibly foolish to build an LRT entirely predicated on future extensions in this environment where you cannot trust your funding partner(s) - federal funding is probably about to become similarly precarious.
Give the Province one last set of conditions and a deadline for their funding. When they fail to meet, draw big black X over their logo on all of the GL signs in the city. At least they'll have a scapegoat for going back to busses (though I honestly believe it would offer better service than these stub line plans before even considering the lower cost).
NDP platform needs to offer a permanent fix for transit capital projects. This ad hoc approach is garbage.
Red Star
Active Member
The CAF Urbos 100's have been ordered and are arriving in 2027.
Shovels need to go into the ground in 2025 and this thing needs to be built from at least Shepard to 4th Street.
lemongrab
Active Member
...and then what?
Hope is not a plan, and I can't conceive any plan for the next steps that don't start with the word hope...
That's where I think this is headed and what the outcome will be. I'm not saying this is the proper way to do it, but I feel like this is the only thing that way it'll happen given the province's strings attached type funding.
With any luck the NDP gets elected while this leg is under construction and we can work something out for getting the downtown portion finished.
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
The missing money is because of AECOM's scope of work. It didn't need to account for what the city says it should.
I think, "it can't get worse", then it gets worse. I was really looking forward to at least a next step. We seem further from that now than ever.
From a Livewire article:
Calgary Mayor Jyoti Gondek said that the number one issue for Calgary city council is clarifying with the province who carries the financial risk for these such issues – as it pertains to the impact on potential landowners.
“We are not interested in carrying the legal risk on a project we didn’t even design,” Mayor Gondek said.
“So, we keep going back to them and saying, ‘if this was a province that had a provincial transit authority, you would be taking on the risk profile. You have not created that type of authority. You’re going to need to do it on this project. It is too big. It’s gone on for too long. It is too expensive. We cannot be the funder of last resort, as the municipality.”
The city's number one issue with the alignment is having to compensate landowners affected (I'm sure they're also worried about sunk cost in the tunnel alignment and contracts). The city are quite exposed and I'm sure the city's lawyers are sounding the alarms on many fronts. The province has said they are not taking on the risk, as I'm sure their lawyers advise against it.
The term 'pick your poison' have never been more apt...
Does the current contract include a downtown portion and if that is dead will the contractor need to be compensated? At least if 4th to Shepard is done you still leave the option open for not wasting the enabling works that have been done downtown.
There is a world where buses can fill in the gap between 4th Street SE and downtown. It actually gives the city an opportunity to implement a proper downtown bus circulation plan. In the next 6 months we should have a airport rail study and provincial rail study come out that should establish a crown corporation for rail projects. The crown corporation that is likely required to move this any other future rail project forward. The goal should be to talk about what can be done (4th to Shepard) and not worry so much about what can't be done (anything north or west of 4th Street SE).
Between 2025 and the opening of the line you can give yourself options to flesh out for next phases. The city is being too absolute in their thinking, plans can always change again. As they have many times since we thought this was a sure thing. Worrying about accepting full responsibility on a 5% plan is a little premature, although understood. Accept the plan and get it to 60%, that will take years. You already have the 60% tunnel plan. Once their both at the 60% design point, compare apples to apples and at that point you can always change the plan again and go back to the tunnel with new funding partners in the Federal Conservatives and Provincial NDP (can you imagine).
I think, "it can't get worse", then it gets worse. I was really looking forward to at least a next step. We seem further from that now than ever.
From a Livewire article:
Calgary Mayor Jyoti Gondek said that the number one issue for Calgary city council is clarifying with the province who carries the financial risk for these such issues – as it pertains to the impact on potential landowners.
“We are not interested in carrying the legal risk on a project we didn’t even design,” Mayor Gondek said.
“So, we keep going back to them and saying, ‘if this was a province that had a provincial transit authority, you would be taking on the risk profile. You have not created that type of authority. You’re going to need to do it on this project. It is too big. It’s gone on for too long. It is too expensive. We cannot be the funder of last resort, as the municipality.”
The city's number one issue with the alignment is having to compensate landowners affected (I'm sure they're also worried about sunk cost in the tunnel alignment and contracts). The city are quite exposed and I'm sure the city's lawyers are sounding the alarms on many fronts. The province has said they are not taking on the risk, as I'm sure their lawyers advise against it.
The term 'pick your poison' have never been more apt...
Does the current contract include a downtown portion and if that is dead will the contractor need to be compensated? At least if 4th to Shepard is done you still leave the option open for not wasting the enabling works that have been done downtown.
There is a world where buses can fill in the gap between 4th Street SE and downtown. It actually gives the city an opportunity to implement a proper downtown bus circulation plan. In the next 6 months we should have a airport rail study and provincial rail study come out that should establish a crown corporation for rail projects. The crown corporation that is likely required to move this any other future rail project forward. The goal should be to talk about what can be done (4th to Shepard) and not worry so much about what can't be done (anything north or west of 4th Street SE).
Between 2025 and the opening of the line you can give yourself options to flesh out for next phases. The city is being too absolute in their thinking, plans can always change again. As they have many times since we thought this was a sure thing. Worrying about accepting full responsibility on a 5% plan is a little premature, although understood. Accept the plan and get it to 60%, that will take years. You already have the 60% tunnel plan. Once their both at the 60% design point, compare apples to apples and at that point you can always change the plan again and go back to the tunnel with new funding partners in the Federal Conservatives and Provincial NDP (can you imagine).
O-tac
Active Member
I agree Shepard to 4th is the minimum that should happen. An ideal scenario would be the city approving the new alignment to get funding started, the UCP ends up with egg on their face, and Nenshi wins the next election and helps get the rest of DT and the north leg going.
haltcatchfire
Senior Member
It's always been completely obvious they're not interested in building the Green Line. This is about regional rail. Cities are just a dot on the provincial map to them.I am starting to think the province isn't particularly interested in building the Green line, at least not the downtown part.
As more info leaks out, their goal seems to have been to meet the communication's objective, not build an actual train line. Their objective was complete when they drafted their consultant report that says "more trains for the same price". It was kind of irrelevant whether the thing is buildable, certain, costed reasonably etc. To their restraint it's a reasonably plausible line with the cost advantages that come from elevated, but ultimately it's a $2.5M version of an alignment of something we'd come up with in the Transit Fantasy thread. Turns out we all are good enough to get to 5% design completion
This is starting to remind me of how the Province previously had a communication's goal as the whole point on some issues. All those "blue ribbon" panels of government-friendly experts that got together for a few million in consulting dollars, then announced their findings that just happen to agree with the government's existing positions, so now they can use it as a political communications talking point.
My bet is the sides are too far apart to resolve this - not just in what they want, but in what their objectives. I think the SE to Victoria Park is what we end up with, with some future project spinning up once the dust settles to take another run at the downtown connection years into the future.