I'm fine with it. If others are, I'll make it so.
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- Thread starter Oddball
- Start date
Oddball
Senior Member
I'm sure we've all heard that the city has made some overtures to the Flames organization. And, that their response was tepid bordering on frigid. I suppose it counts as getting the ball rolling though. I wanted to highlight some interesting stats. According to ESPN, Calgary's average attendance was up year-over-year in 2017-18, from 18,727 the year prior to 18,905. That was also good enough to bump Calgary up the average attendance ranking from 10th to 8th. To quote Ken King, sounds like the Flames are somehow "making do" in one of the most engaged hockey markets in the world. 
Source: http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance
Source: http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance
Social Justice
Active Member
I'm sure we've all heard that the city has made some overtures to the Flames organization. And, that their response was tepid bordering on frigid. I suppose it counts as getting the ball rolling though. I wanted to highlight some interesting stats. According to ESPN, Calgary's average attendance was up year-over-year in 2017-18, from 18,727 the year prior to 18,905. That was also good enough to bump Calgary up the average attendance ranking from 10th to 8th. To quote Ken King, sounds like the Flames are somehow "making do" in one of the most engaged hockey markets in the world.
Source: http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance
Good to hear!
I heard that the biggest problem in the Saddledome is the lack of box seating, not the total attendance.
Operater
Active Member
Hi,
If i sound biased, that's OK, We can Agree to Disagree etc. I Still come away with the Feelings that the Flames Group would Like to have Both the Stadium/Arena
Complex all Under One Roof as Such. TRUE Weather it Happens will B Interesting to See. I Try to Look at the Impact of JOBS and Economic Benefits
that a Project that Size will Have in the Long Term. Might Take a While, but do feel something will B Worked Out in the Flames Groups Favour. We Shall See.
Tnx,
Operater
If i sound biased, that's OK, We can Agree to Disagree etc. I Still come away with the Feelings that the Flames Group would Like to have Both the Stadium/Arena
Complex all Under One Roof as Such. TRUE Weather it Happens will B Interesting to See. I Try to Look at the Impact of JOBS and Economic Benefits
that a Project that Size will Have in the Long Term. Might Take a While, but do feel something will B Worked Out in the Flames Groups Favour. We Shall See.
Tnx,
Operater
Meikkhaell
Active Member
I've been doing a lot of thinking about this in the dog days of summer, and perhaps the prospect of a single complex housing both a CFL and NHL team isn't as ludicrous as some make it out to be.
Obviously the CalgaryNEXT proposal itself, with its location, insane cost (especially to taxpayers), and questionable design definitely leaves much to be desired. I hope that idea stays in the grave where it belongs.
But when you think about it, it would essentially make wherever it is a year-round entertainment district. Right now, the Stampede Grounds lay relatively empty for the duration of the NHL offseason (aside from the Stampede and a few other events, obviously). McMahon lays cold and barren through the winter. To have both under one roof would mean year-round usage of that land, CSEC only having to fund, stock, and maintain one major venue instead of two, and local businesses like bars and restaurants would see year-round business.
Obviously there's challenges. Victoria Park is the most likely place for this to happen if it ever were to. There's a lot of hotels set up near McMahon that will struggle if the Stamps move buildings. CSEC seems pretty set on forcing taxpayers to foot the bill (something I don't agree with, unless they want to give away seats for free). Also the odd time where there's a CFL and an NHL game on the same day, parking, lineups, etc could be absolute chaos. This would need to be worked out. It's already a nightmare getting out of the Stampede grounds after an NHL game. Imagine 40,000 more people on top of that.
BUT, there's also definitely opportunity. And in a way, if all goes well, it could be a win-win-win situation for fans, owners, and business. We get our shiny new arena, vibrant entertainment district, allegedly more concerts, year-round facility, indoor CFL games (supposedly), and if all goes well we don't have to pay for much of it. CSEC saves money by only needing to run one building, only having to ship and prepare food at one location, and so on. They benefit from year-long activity, and probably get nice tax exemptions or something. And with this entertainment district, new and existing restaurants, bars, shops, etc, will have year-round business and not rely on a few months to make or break their whole year.
I hope this sort of dialogue is going on with the meetings between city council and the Flames. Be constructive, make compromise, benefit all parties. It's a dealbreaker if they're firm on forcing Calgarians to pay for the whole thing. We already pay them (a lot) in tickets, food, merch, etc. We don't have the luxury of having a hockey team in Calgary so much as they have the luxury of having us as fans. As you guys have said. One of the most passionate fanbases in the NHL. I hope we can work this out. We deserve it.
Obviously the CalgaryNEXT proposal itself, with its location, insane cost (especially to taxpayers), and questionable design definitely leaves much to be desired. I hope that idea stays in the grave where it belongs.
But when you think about it, it would essentially make wherever it is a year-round entertainment district. Right now, the Stampede Grounds lay relatively empty for the duration of the NHL offseason (aside from the Stampede and a few other events, obviously). McMahon lays cold and barren through the winter. To have both under one roof would mean year-round usage of that land, CSEC only having to fund, stock, and maintain one major venue instead of two, and local businesses like bars and restaurants would see year-round business.
Obviously there's challenges. Victoria Park is the most likely place for this to happen if it ever were to. There's a lot of hotels set up near McMahon that will struggle if the Stamps move buildings. CSEC seems pretty set on forcing taxpayers to foot the bill (something I don't agree with, unless they want to give away seats for free). Also the odd time where there's a CFL and an NHL game on the same day, parking, lineups, etc could be absolute chaos. This would need to be worked out. It's already a nightmare getting out of the Stampede grounds after an NHL game. Imagine 40,000 more people on top of that.
BUT, there's also definitely opportunity. And in a way, if all goes well, it could be a win-win-win situation for fans, owners, and business. We get our shiny new arena, vibrant entertainment district, allegedly more concerts, year-round facility, indoor CFL games (supposedly), and if all goes well we don't have to pay for much of it. CSEC saves money by only needing to run one building, only having to ship and prepare food at one location, and so on. They benefit from year-long activity, and probably get nice tax exemptions or something. And with this entertainment district, new and existing restaurants, bars, shops, etc, will have year-round business and not rely on a few months to make or break their whole year.
I hope this sort of dialogue is going on with the meetings between city council and the Flames. Be constructive, make compromise, benefit all parties. It's a dealbreaker if they're firm on forcing Calgarians to pay for the whole thing. We already pay them (a lot) in tickets, food, merch, etc. We don't have the luxury of having a hockey team in Calgary so much as they have the luxury of having us as fans. As you guys have said. One of the most passionate fanbases in the NHL. I hope we can work this out. We deserve it.
darwink
Senior Member
Well, if the Olympics are won and the infrastructure plan from last summer continues, it is pretty likely the Stampede Grandstand will end up as a nice CFL capable stadium. The Flames groups ends up with things close together. The university would retire McMahon and build a small 3-5k stadium and practice facility on campus, and a bunch of land would be freed up for a new TOD anchored by the field house and upgraded Foothills athletic park.
CBBarnett
Senior Member
This would be the way to go. Calgary doesn't need 2 x 25,000 person capacity outdoor grandstands with a usage of ~10 days / year each, both in the inner city, both taking up dozens of acres of good real estate. If they made the stampede site compatible for outdoor concerts they would further improve it's usability/utilization and aligns well with the Stampede's whole thing of a year round entertainment destination.
Operater
Active Member
Hi,
if this Project Ever gets Blt, there will B the Car Dealer Ships to B Settled and the Grey Hound Complex as Well. 3 Guess Who GETS to Pay to Clean Up
all the Land etc. WE DO, the TAX PAYERS as I See It. Brother CAN You Spare a Few Loonies & Toonies some how. This Will B Interesting in the Long Term.
Tnx,
Operrater.
if this Project Ever gets Blt, there will B the Car Dealer Ships to B Settled and the Grey Hound Complex as Well. 3 Guess Who GETS to Pay to Clean Up
all the Land etc. WE DO, the TAX PAYERS as I See It. Brother CAN You Spare a Few Loonies & Toonies some how. This Will B Interesting in the Long Term.
Tnx,
Operrater.
Meikkhaell
Active Member
The project you're referring to, CalgaryNEXT, as it stands, will never see the light of day.
Everything (restaurants, bars, 17th ave, transit, parking) is set up to have an arena in Victoria Park. There's no sense in uprooting all of that just to rebuild it all again in the (much smaller) West Village.
That was just a billionaire's paradise. Not realistic in any way.
We were discussing having a Stadium and Arena in Victoria Park, where it makes more sense to do so. The Grandstand would need major upgrades (it has ~25,000 capacity. McMahon has 46,000 and some CFL stadiums have 60,000. Not nearly large enough) but could definitely function quite well as a CFL stadium if planned out properly.
Everything (restaurants, bars, 17th ave, transit, parking) is set up to have an arena in Victoria Park. There's no sense in uprooting all of that just to rebuild it all again in the (much smaller) West Village.
That was just a billionaire's paradise. Not realistic in any way.
We were discussing having a Stadium and Arena in Victoria Park, where it makes more sense to do so. The Grandstand would need major upgrades (it has ~25,000 capacity. McMahon has 46,000 and some CFL stadiums have 60,000. Not nearly large enough) but could definitely function quite well as a CFL stadium if planned out properly.
darwink
Senior Member
https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=13397
So there a bunch of options. Basically depending on how many permanent seats you want the Grandstand complex to have when you remove the temporary seats (the target was 25,000 'legacy' seats, presumably developed with the Stampede Board and maybe the Stampeders:
14,421 - Current setup
25,015 seats - a new infield building (12300)
22,215 seats - a new infield (9500), existing Grandstand
25,715 seats - a new infield (6000) and a third tier on the Grandstand (7000)
You could go bigger - a third tier on the Grandstand and a new infield building, to get to 32015 permanent seats.
The new infield options would provide solid foundation and support services to build temporary stands for big CFL events in the future like hosting the Grey Cup. In any case, you probably host the Grey Cup in 2025 to test all the facilities + temporary seating at full load.
The Familia
Senior Member
Ugh so bushleague. The Grandstand is a dump and not an improvement over what we have. The configurations all look like junk. We need a football specific stadium similar to what Regina has. Man our facilities are an embarrassment. If we are not going to receive any new infrastructure for the Olympics than I will vote no during the pleblicite. I want a new arena/stadium from the provincial and federal government!
darwink
Senior Member
So new plan in today's hosting plan. https://www.calgary2026.ca/
No renovations to the Grandstand
McMahon Stadium – ‘Revitalizing’ renovations to accommodate 40,000 for opening and closing ceremonies, 25,000 permenant seats: New entry plaza, ticketing and Fan Zone; New team zone and concourse patio; New and renovated washrooms; New permanent seats, food prep kitchen and concessions; and, New operations centre. I think the CBEC report had a $40-50 million renovation plan that this sounds like. Can't find it now.
Community Sized Arena, new – 5,000-6,000 seat arena, used as secondary hockey venue, replacement for existing facilities with additional twin ice surface. I think this is an ideal bait and switch - secure public funds for this ($150-$200 million), then the Flames come to the table and say they will build the same thing—but bigger—for a contribution the same size.
No renovations to the Grandstand
McMahon Stadium – ‘Revitalizing’ renovations to accommodate 40,000 for opening and closing ceremonies, 25,000 permenant seats: New entry plaza, ticketing and Fan Zone; New team zone and concourse patio; New and renovated washrooms; New permanent seats, food prep kitchen and concessions; and, New operations centre. I think the CBEC report had a $40-50 million renovation plan that this sounds like. Can't find it now.
Community Sized Arena, new – 5,000-6,000 seat arena, used as secondary hockey venue, replacement for existing facilities with additional twin ice surface. I think this is an ideal bait and switch - secure public funds for this ($150-$200 million), then the Flames come to the table and say they will build the same thing—but bigger—for a contribution the same size.
Social Justice
Active Member
I'm voting 'No' in the upcoming plebiscite.
Meikkhaell
Active Member
For the Olympics, with what we're getting compared to what it costs, I don't know if its worth it. Here, near the bottom, they have their cute little pie chart for how the $3,000,000,000 public investment would be used. What about the remaining $2.6B+? What does that go towards? I see a lot of the major stuff outlined in just the $3B. For $5.6B we should be getting more than just some renovations. That should be more than enough to fund a new arena in VP and an entertainment district around it, AND put on a successful Olympics.
They say $1.6B goes towards new housing and upgrading/building venues. Here, on pg 8, they list 10 venues, of which two are new and 8 are planned to be upgraded.
Based off what improvements they say they'll make and if I was able to find news articles with specific numbers, Here's my 5-minute estimation for what those 10 venues should roughly cost:
New Community Arena: $200M. New Curling Centre: $25M. McMahon Upgrades: $50M. Oval Upgrades: $70M. BMO & Stampede Park: $30M. Winsport Track & Hill: $40M. Nakiska: $25M. Canmore Nordic: 20M. Whistler: $50M?
Together that adds up to $510M.
I read they want to build about 2800 housing units. Assuming that makes up the rest of the $1.6B, that's a cost of about $390,000 per housing unit, just to build it. I don't know the specifics of everything, but to me that sounds high, especially for "affordable housing."
Another news article said this housing should cost $600M to build, which is a bit more reasonable. But where does the remaining $490,000,000 go? That's basically enough in and of itself to build a pretty good new NHL arena. (T-Mobile Arena in Vegas, a beautiful building imo, was $375M).
If this $1.6B is truly only going towards venues and housing, and they're spending it responsibly, shouldn't it be budgeted for more like $1.1B? Even after considering inflation and even if some of my estimations are off, I don't see how that $500M just vanishes, and I definitely don't see how they spend $3B on all of this and then STILL need $2.6B on top of that. To do what? Turn a few billionaires into multibillionaires?
There's no megaprojects coming out of this. If they had some high speed rail line between Calgary and Edmonton, or a new arena, or an LRT connection to the airport, or some other massive infrastructure in the plans, then I'd understand the budget being this high. But there's none of that and yet it costs this much.
It doesn't add up.
They say $1.6B goes towards new housing and upgrading/building venues. Here, on pg 8, they list 10 venues, of which two are new and 8 are planned to be upgraded.
Based off what improvements they say they'll make and if I was able to find news articles with specific numbers, Here's my 5-minute estimation for what those 10 venues should roughly cost:
New Community Arena: $200M. New Curling Centre: $25M. McMahon Upgrades: $50M. Oval Upgrades: $70M. BMO & Stampede Park: $30M. Winsport Track & Hill: $40M. Nakiska: $25M. Canmore Nordic: 20M. Whistler: $50M?
Together that adds up to $510M.
I read they want to build about 2800 housing units. Assuming that makes up the rest of the $1.6B, that's a cost of about $390,000 per housing unit, just to build it. I don't know the specifics of everything, but to me that sounds high, especially for "affordable housing."
Another news article said this housing should cost $600M to build, which is a bit more reasonable. But where does the remaining $490,000,000 go? That's basically enough in and of itself to build a pretty good new NHL arena. (T-Mobile Arena in Vegas, a beautiful building imo, was $375M).
If this $1.6B is truly only going towards venues and housing, and they're spending it responsibly, shouldn't it be budgeted for more like $1.1B? Even after considering inflation and even if some of my estimations are off, I don't see how that $500M just vanishes, and I definitely don't see how they spend $3B on all of this and then STILL need $2.6B on top of that. To do what? Turn a few billionaires into multibillionaires?
There's no megaprojects coming out of this. If they had some high speed rail line between Calgary and Edmonton, or a new arena, or an LRT connection to the airport, or some other massive infrastructure in the plans, then I'd understand the budget being this high. But there's none of that and yet it costs this much.
It doesn't add up.
darwink
Senior Member
The housing is the net cost, not the gross.
Outside of the government contribution is the Olympic operating budget, $2,417 million. That budget is paid for by IOC Contribution (broadcast & TOP sponsors), and Other revenues (domestic sponsors, ticketing, merchandising, etc.).
The Paralympics don't break even and have a cost of $332 million, and need $245 in subsidy.
Outside of the government contribution is the Olympic operating budget, $2,417 million. That budget is paid for by IOC Contribution (broadcast & TOP sponsors), and Other revenues (domestic sponsors, ticketing, merchandising, etc.).
The Paralympics don't break even and have a cost of $332 million, and need $245 in subsidy.
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