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I'm disappointed by the concrete-before-organization thinking around the idea of a choo-choo to the mountains. There currently isn't a good, regular bus service, perhaps we could start with that? Instead of a billion dollars, bus service would be closer to a million dollars a year. And bus service doesn't block a train in the future; if the buses are wildly successful and jammed full of people, then the train can be built a year or two later and we'll have high confidence it'll work. If bus service wasn't wildly successful, the train would be unlikely to be, and we wouldn't have wasted a billion dollars for no reason.

Are there more benefits for a train? Maybe, if it's well used. But if you can get 50% or 80% of the benefits for literally 0.1% of the cost, you'd be a lunatic not to pick that option.

I would love to see a high-quality, high-frequency, heavily subsidized bus service to the mountains. But I don't see it as a meaningful downtown revitalization initiative.

I am very skeptical that such as service would attract international tourists or conference attendees. We do get a lot of tourists who can't or don't want to drive private cars, but these group aren't that price sensitive and would largely continue to take private bus or car services.

I am also very skeptical that it would convince developers to invest downtown, or post-secondary schools to build campuses downtown. Way too much risk of it disappearing as soon as the political winds shift.
 
To attract PSE someone has to pay, either the city or the province. If it is an expansion, it is operating and capital. If it is relocating, it is capital.
 
Rather than spend ~$1 billion to move the line, I'd rather see the City and Province spend the ~$1 billion to build the airport to Banff project so residents can actually use the corridor.

Lets spend 3 billion and put in Surreal's canal under a really cool double stack high speed rail bridge, all parallel. Heavy rail can go out of sight on the top level. Passenger rail can be visible from the adjacent pedestrian area. Mirror the entire streetwall of the north side so it counteracts the shadowing of the bridge. Or we can rotate Calgary 90 degrees so it wouldn't cause shadow for as long.
 
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I would love to see a high-quality, high-frequency, heavily subsidized bus service to the mountains. But I don't see it as a meaningful downtown revitalization initiative.

I am very skeptical that such as service would attract international tourists or conference attendees. We do get a lot of tourists who can't or don't want to drive private cars, but these group aren't that price sensitive and would largely continue to take private bus or car services.

I am also very skeptical that it would convince developers to invest downtown, or post-secondary schools to build campuses downtown. Way too much risk of it disappearing as soon as the political winds shift.

The thing is that a train is also not a meaningful downtown revitalization initiative, it's just not meaningful for 1000 times as much money.

A bus won't attract international tourists or conference attendees. A train won't attract international tourists or conference attendees.
The mountains is what attracts international tourists; the conference is what attracts attendees.

If we want to attract international tourists to downtown, "it's easy to leave and go to the actual place you want to go to" isn't as compelling an argument as you seem to think. Making downtown more attractive for visitors, and a place worth spending time in, and marketing it, is the actual area we need to focus our efforts. Yes, visitors who do stop downtown want an easy, convenient way to get to the mountains; a clear, legible, attractive coach service can be that with a modest amount of investment. The Grand Canyon, Arches and Yosemite are all only accessible by bus and they seem to get global visitors just fine.

I honestly think that spending a few million on a high quality coach station / visitor centre located at the parking lot on Centre St at 7th Avenue, with frequent dedicated airport buses connecting with frequent high quality coaches to the mountains would do more to boost downtown tourism than a train. You get off there to change to the mountain coach, you've got some amazing skyscrapers to the north, there's a hotel right there, you look south and it's the iconic Calgary tower; walk a short block that way and you're on a pedestrian street in a historic district full of restaurants. You ride a train into the downtown, and you see the backside of a power plant, the backside of a parkade, the backside of an electrical power station, the underside of another parkade, then another parkade... could there be anything less inviting?

If an argument for building a train to the mountains is that people will come to Calgary for a conference when they can get on a train to the mountains, but not to the same city for the same conference when you take a luxury coach to the same mountains -- honestly, is that 1% of conference attendees? Less? The conferences I've been involved with have taken people out to Banff by bus, and that seemed pretty popular amongst attendees. (PS: if we're hoping to revitalize downtown with conferences, why are we spending hundreds of millions to move conferences outside of downtown to the Stampede? We'd do better with a $500K road diet and public realm project on Macleod Trail to get attendees walking into the downtown than with a train.)

If an argument for building a train to the mountains is that post secondary institutions will relocate to be near to the train station, I mean, I don't even know where to start.
 
Firstly, downtown is now 'greater downtown'. As for the train itself, it is that with relatively modest ridership you can cover a large chunk of the cost. And you get a train and can point to it to never expand the highway to avoid the 20 days a year when there is congestion. It is mostly a provincial play - drive visitation without the negative impacts ( I am expecting an announcement this summer of a next phase of study - perhaps going to an EA). For the city, it is throwing in a bit of cash and political capital to overcome objections from local players (have already heard about concerns that it will make Canmore into even more of a bedroom community) and to have more say on what kind of service pattern will be offered, see if can wrangle another station (Bowness?) and some frequencies to connect Calgary a bit, (instead of the once an hour or less west to Banff) and have a better station location (more money could enable a reactivation at Centre Street, instead of 4th St SE). Don't think the city would really be in for much, think comparable costs to what the city is spending on underpasses in the core under the CPR right now.

The main tourism and conventioning benefits are almost an illusion - the illusion of access (sorta like the illusion of parking). Think about all the conventions that you've been to that haven't organized excursions. Now they can market that there is a ready made trip, without going to any of the trouble of actually organizing it. Now every Calgary convention has that where a person can add a day to their stay and explore at their leisure.

There is also the prestige of rail. An assertion that Calgary's downtown is a leading place, that Calgary is connecting its airport to the core. So much of it is perception - it helps create reality. A perception of moving forward, and creating, the change of sentiment to possibility. Plus added visitation just to take the train-I think it is easy to underestimate that.

I don't think a bus at 1% of the cost even creates 10% of the benefits. Plus it has the perennial problem--it would require an operational subsidy whereas the rail project wouldn't, so it isn't a 'one and done' for the government. The rail project is also attractive to government because it brings private capital (and federal government investment (not grant) capital) to the table. So for maybe a couple of a hundred million bucks you get a billion dollars of construction activity. Plus all the extra benefits.

Can't fall into the trap that in the absence of a project like the rail link, that a similar amount of capital would be available for other projects. It just goes away without the project.
 
There has never been a shortage of transportation options to the mountains, for visitors to Calgary. There are plenty of tour operators (i.e. Brewster) who have regular bus trips to the mountains from spring to fall. Conferences usually contract with one of them to offer excursions to their attendees. Therefore justifying any kind of additional investment to boost tourism in either bus or trains would be misdirected. If it was available and you could convince residents of Calgary, to take a direct train or bus to Banff (i.e a green initiative), instead of going in their cars, then the investment might be worthwhile. However, I don't think we have the population to support it.
 
There has never been a shortage of transportation options to the mountains, for visitors to Calgary. There are plenty of tour operators (i.e. Brewster) who have regular bus trips to the mountains from spring to fall. Conferences usually contract with one of them to offer excursions to their attendees. Therefore justifying any kind of additional investment to boost tourism in either bus or trains would be misdirected. If it was available and you could convince residents of Calgary, to take a direct train or bus to Banff (i.e a green initiative), instead of going in their cars, then the investment might be worthwhile. However, I don't think we have the population to support it.

Here's a neat source for some transit data that's relevant the the Calgary, Banff debate. Roam Transit - the Bow Valley transit group that support Banff and Canmore - publishes monthly numbers of all their routes and includes the Calgary-regional data. I linked the last pre-pandemic report https://roamtransit.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/February-2020-Agenda-Package.pdf

Here's the list of routes with monthly data:
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A couple of things I find interesting:
  • Banff local routes within the town only cracked 1M annual passengers in 2019, highly peaked in the summer. July and August 2019 averaged around 5,000 passengers / day locally. This is stellar for a small town transit service.
  • IIRC, On-it (Calgary to Banff) ran Friday - Sunday in summer 2019. So ~12 days in August 2019 where they their highest ridership works out to about 500 people / day on that service alone. This obviously doesn't count any of the airport-to-Banff private services which I would guess are several multiples more.
  • The Canmore - Banff regional service ridership impressively grew and is less seasonal than the rest. In January 2020, 600 people/day took Route 3 - not bad for two towns with a population of 8,000 and 15,000 in an off-peak time of year.
The takeaways for me:
  • I think a lot of Calgarians underestimate how popular the route Calgary (airport) - Banff - Johnson Canyon - Lake Louise is, how much transit is already involved in the mountain transportation system, and how challenging it is to drive between these places due to congestion and parking. This is the huge driver of the tour bus industry and a huge advantage for transit to provide competitive access. If you have to park in the Lake Louise overflow parking lot anyways, why not take the bus or train from Banff instead?
  • If anything - like a train service - could outcompete the Calgary-Canmore-Banff route by either travel time or reliability (by avoiding congestion) you'd both gain market share from tour buses, but also from some drivers. Finally, you'd might even generate more trips because you would make it more reasonable to access the park for those that don't drive, don't have a park pass, or hate the constant threat of highway congestion just to get there.
  • As part of that Calgary-Canmore-Banff service we made it attractive for tourists to stay a night in Calgary downtown at the beginning and end of their trips you'd make the case even stronger for the spin-off benefits.
If executed properly, a train service would be the most rare of North American experiences: one where public transit is faster, cheaper and more reliable than driving. It's not surprising private money is looking at this - the business case is there on so many levels, just requires the right organization, risk sharing and setup to happen.
 
^^ Same here.

The points made by @ByeByeBaby @CBBarnett and @darwink have all pretty much confirmed my greatest hopes for this project. I've always been a proponent for regional rail, as outside of the Big 3 metros of Canada, regional rail only really makes sense in Calgary due to Banff NP being an extremely popular tourist attraction, disproportionately massive economic generator, plus the year-round mountain sporting opportunities and the extremely large number of outdoor enthusiasts in the city, a trait Calgarians share in extreme abundance relative to other cities. The reality is that demographics have changed big in the last 20 years, a lot of young people don't own (or at least don't want to own) cars. Having a service like this would help to justify that lifestyle choice in the frame of contemporary social mores, among many other benefits previously mentioned of course.
 
^^ Same here.

The points made by @ByeByeBaby @CBBarnett and @darwink have all pretty much confirmed my greatest hopes for this project. I've always been a proponent for regional rail, as outside of the Big 3 metros of Canada, regional rail only really makes sense in Calgary due to Banff NP being an extremely popular tourist attraction, disproportionately massive economic generator, plus the year-round mountain sporting opportunities and the extremely large number of outdoor enthusiasts in the city, a trait Calgarians share in extreme abundance relative to other cities. The reality is that demographics have changed big in the last 20 years, a lot of young people don't own (or at least don't want to own) cars. Having a service like this would help to justify that lifestyle choice in the frame of contemporary social mores, among many other benefits previously mentioned of course.
Combined with the fundamental geometry and distribution of our mountain destinations. It has uniquely transit-friendly designed destinations - perhaps unsurprising, because it was built for train service in the first place.

A string of dense, walkable destinations separated by 20 - 40km in a straight-line, with no development sprawl, parking capacity restrictions everywhere, and a $20 / car surcharge already (in addition to regular driving costs).

It's the perfect scenario to have competitive regional transit.
 
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The Globe and Mail: Can architecture fix a downtown? Design experts share their vision for a reimagined Calgary.
 
I found this link to an interesting article by the Globe and Mail on Calgary's downtown.
Not sure if this was posted before but here it is.




and I got to that above link from this link that identified Calgary as an outlier to the original story.

 
Love that our foot traffic has bounced back so hard relatively. Really shows how dense our inner city is becoming, along with the switch in the general populations view of downtown from being dangerous/derelict to being beautiful and active now.
 

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