[jade_lee]

My people? We've already been through this in another thread.

1) I am not american.
2) If I was, why should it matter?
3) I have never been supportive of propping up dictators anywhere particularly if they are the kind who oppress their own people (the benevolent dictator is a rather elusive figure in history).
4) That was exactly my argument. Jade_lee gushes over Castro. Would she be equally enthralled by Pinochet? Or is there a double standard at play? Left wing anti-american dictators good. Right wing pro-US dictators bad.

Show me where I gushed about Castro!

 

[jade_lee]

In response to your Pinochet comment, I respect the Chilean people for having the courage to never give up seeking justice when it came to Pinochet and I only wish that Cheney will be prosecuted for his flagrant disregard towards human rights in both Afghanistan and Iraq by his relentless promotion and official order for the use of torture against prisoners of war, the incarcerated. crimes against humanity not unlike Pinochet"s.
It takes a very long time to weed out ugly truths. Perhaps Cheney will not live long enough to know how the future documents his recent past. Pity.

 

[Amphibius]

^ Again, note that I have never advocated for trade embargoes. I find some of your points disturbing to say the least. You complain about how much there is to do at home. And then suggest that we should limit our involvement outside Canada. Surely as a poli sci major you should understand that countries do need to engage abroad from time to time to defend and promote their interests. Your philosophy has a much better name: isolationism. Taken to its logical conclusion we might as well stop peacekeeping and wrap up foreign aid as well. After all we do have tons of infrastructure that needs to be fixed at home and CIDA's 5 billion dollar budget could do wonders on that front.

Next, you equate your personal experience in Cuba as being typical and interpret the people as satisfied. Virtually every UN stat would disagree with your assertion. I have never said Cuba is a third world country. It is not. It wasn't before the revolution. And it wasn't after. It's what would be called in the old lexicon a second world country. Never dirt poor, but never materially well off enough to be a first world country. So they certainly have some ways to go when it comes to economic development. However, just because you lived with a solidly middle class family (pharmacists the world over are usually middle class) and saw some infrastructure (is there a country that does not have highways?) and good medical facilities (often short on medicine and often used to treat wealthy venezuelans first) does not mean that you had an objectively authentic Cuban experience. Ever give a thought to the vast majority of Cubans who don't reside in Havanna? What about their quality of life? And what about political freedoms? Did you seen any street protests when you were there? And what happens if they don't like how their government is performing. What recourse do they have?

When it comes to our relationship, you suggest that we should have a carrot and stick approach. I couldn't agree more. Please tell me what our stick is right now? The Canadian approach to Cuba varies between one of indifference to all carrot. We have never wielded a stick against Cuba to the best of my knowledge....or at least one big enough to be remembered. Can you tell me what changes our policies have brought about in Cuba? Sure the US approach is wrong. And that embargo has led to legitimization of the Castro regime. But Cuba's coddling by the rest of the world has done nothing but help Cuba escape the harshness of the American regime. We have given Castro the best of both worlds. He gets to continue railing at the US while getting a pass on the mismanagement of his country (Cuba has significant economic potential that could have been harnessed even with the embargo in place) and the oppression of his people (which apparently you seem to think we should not even bother addressing in the slightest lest we offend the sensitivities of the regime). I'd like to see that embargo lifted and replaced with severe sanctions against the regime and leadership of Cuba. Sure we'll trade with you. But you won't be skiing in Whistler any time soon.

I fail to see what was disturbing about anything I said. My own personal anecdotal experience may not gel well with the UN's opinion (note both are subjective, open to interpretation) but to make broad sweeping presumptions about a country and a people without first-hand knowledge of how their society (or at least that of Havana's) operates; can lead the average person here to think that something like human torture is a routine commonplace practice being engaged on down there. I've heard the horror stories about what punishments await dissentors myself, but these aren't necessarily the norm otherwise the int'l community would've had enough grounds to impose military responsives by now. Their relunctance leads to me to wonder whether this is just another US propogandist tool, hyperbolized through our liberal-conscious media.

I've seen the best and the worst of Cuban infrastructure and social conditions. There's room for improvement. There's room for improvement right here in Canada. Every nation has problems, be it democratic or autocratic. But who are we to judge? The Communist Revolution at its heart was a proliterian backlash against the social class struggles created by an US-backed capitalist concentration of power and wealth among a small corrupt segment of society (capital of American mafioso origin as in exchange for kickbacks, 1950s Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batista would offer the Mafia control of Havana’s racetracks and casinos). So if ideologically America and the West (including Canada) is precieved as a corrupting entity within other socieites, it is natural to expect resistance-- not just by the leadership but-- by the citizens unwilling to openly embrace its alien practices. This probably isn't as extreme a mentality in Cuba's case, but through many parts of Sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East this is an accepted view. I suggest that you may want to check out this book for further reading about geopolitics and the spread of democracy across cultural boundaries: The Spirit of Democracy by Larry Diamond (2008).

I'm glad you brought up CIDA. You're proving that Canadians' taxpayer dollars already do more for foreign societies than it does, for say, our own indigenous First Nations living in impoverished, squalor, Third World conditions up north. Fine you might say. But what does Canada get in return? Think about it. I'm not advocating total isolationism but at the same time, the aid relief we give out to other countries has to be earned. This is why I'm suggesting a different kind of foreign policy towards Cuba. We don't convince Castro's followers to democratize the electoral system by forceful coercion but rather by diplomatic persuasion. An independent media where opposition parties can voice their dissent and unbiased judiciary are good places to start. Hopefully having a more moderate US President in office right now will help alleviate tensions there too. From Wiki:

"President Barack Obama stated on April 17, 2009 in Trinidad & Tobago that "the United States seeks a new beginning with Cuba", and reversed the Bush Administration's prohibition on travel and remittances by Cuban-Americans from the United States to Cuba."

I agree with what you're saying about the unharnested potential at economic growth. This is why I applaud any Canadians and Americans whom boldly support Cuba's tourism trade by flying down there in defiance of the embargo. Tourism isn't their only bounty (the country's also rich in mineral ore and oil deposits, as well the agriculture of sugar cane and tabacco) but it's an industry relatively easy for the locals themselves to establish and best of all it gets money put directly into the hands of regular citizens who need it, without gov't involvement. Tourist-based industry societies are often the catalyst for mass-employment in an otherwise jobless seaside or jungle/rainforest community (new job opportunities created for: tour guides, bus drivers, concierges, housekeepers, supervisors/managers, florists, bakery staff, artisians, party coordinators, live performers/enactors, janitors, maintenence workers, park rangers, groundskeepers, lifeguards, hotel security, sous chefs/cooks, waitering staff, fishermen, ranchers/farmers, manicurists, massage therapists, spa staff, boat operators, dive instructors, wildlife handlers, etc.).