kEiThZ
Superstar
I trust you'll take the warning that ShonTron gave you in the Tamil protest thread to heart and avoid comments like this in the future?
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- Thread starter jade_lee
- Start date
I trust you'll take the warning that ShonTron gave you in the Tamil protest thread to heart and avoid comments like this in the future?
kEiThZ
Superstar
At least Bush was never as anti-Canada as his replacement. And Obama's anti-gay bigotry has been shameful.
It get's even more interesting. Obama is slowly starting to partially accept many of Bush's policies. There's the policy on the torture photos. Then the policy on Military Commissions. And when it comes to Canada, we'll see how many Canadians love the guy if Napolitano follows through on her ignorant rhetoric.
But I will give him credit on the Cuba policy. This is good for Cuba and good for the US in the long run. They need to engage Cuba before the Castro brothers kick the bucket and lay the ground work for better relations in the future. Now's as good a time as any other.
nfitz
Superstar
I thought it was about not trusting articles written by biased writers ...This thread is not about Canadians supporting Castro or dictatorships but instead it's about not punishing nations because they are "commies" but instead it's about our reaction to governments that are different from our own.
kEiThZ
Superstar
^ Tsk tsk. Don't you realize that we as Canadians as supposed to complete accept Castro's propaganda without question, or Jade_lee will berate us with accusations of being Bush lovers? It makes me laugh that anybody would put up an article by Castro about Cuba and then defend it. That's like getting Dick Cheney's opinion on torture and then defending it as the right path for Canada to follow. We'd be better off getting hunting advice from Dick!
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jade_lee
Active Member
The article included information from the Kennedy family......go read all about it. Herein was the irony of it all.
jade_lee
Active Member
^ Tsk tsk. Don't you realize that we as Canadians as supposed to complete accept Castro's propaganda without question, or Jade_lee will berate us with accusations of being Bush lovers? It makes me laugh that anybody would put up an article by Castro about Cuba and then defend it. That's like getting Dick Cheney's opinion on torture and then defending it as the right path for Canada to follow. We'd be better off getting hunting advice from Dick!
Some people never quite get it.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Yep, I am sure Castro should be taken as the authority on what Kennedy would do. That the article is self-serving is obvious. Only the most wollen of sheep would buy it. Now, I support lifting the ban on Cuba but it's ridiculous to suggest that we should concomittantly turn a blind eye to many of the regime's abuses. Do you really think that's what Kennedy would have done?
kEiThZ
Superstar
Note also that the title of the thread bears little relation to the original article. How does what Castro thinks Kennedy would have done relate to Canada? Are we to accept that the only correct policy path is the prescription of what autocrats speculate past US presidents would do?
kEiThZ
Superstar
Some people never quite get it.
Then its incumbent on you to explain it. That's what internet forums are for: debate. You simply want others to accept your codswallop without any response.
jade_lee
Active Member
For the past 40 years "constructive engagement" has been the Canadian policy towards Cuba. Good policies, good relationships. We understand the reality of dictators, whether of the left or of the right, and to not do business with Cuba would also mean never doing business with dictators like the Chinese or the Saudi Arabians. Quite foolish when you think about it.
"Cuba is a political problem of disproportionate importance in the United States because of the power, money, and numbers of the Cuban refugee community" JC
It's time for America to move on and revoke the Helms-Burton Act. Why should Canadian companies doing business with Cuba be punished for it?
This is what I typed. Re-read it here and now.
In terms of the article it's quite difficult to say what Kennedy himself would have done because he was murdered. But I factor in what I have read about JFK, Nigel Hamilton
reproduced a great deal of what Kennedy himself mused about and with that I view Kennedy as a once rational great thinker and as an ordinary man who made many mistakes.
"Cuba is a political problem of disproportionate importance in the United States because of the power, money, and numbers of the Cuban refugee community" JC
It's time for America to move on and revoke the Helms-Burton Act. Why should Canadian companies doing business with Cuba be punished for it?
This is what I typed. Re-read it here and now.
In terms of the article it's quite difficult to say what Kennedy himself would have done because he was murdered. But I factor in what I have read about JFK, Nigel Hamilton
reproduced a great deal of what Kennedy himself mused about and with that I view Kennedy as a once rational great thinker and as an ordinary man who made many mistakes.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Just because we trade with other dictators does not make it right. I have always believed that we should have a principled foreign policy where trade was linked to human rights. At the very minimum a very basic standard of human rights (for example not having to worry about 'disappearing' would be a good start) should be advocated for with all our trade partners (including the Chinese, Saudi Arabians, and even the Americans).
So we have 'engaged' Cuba (and even that's a sketchy term...all we do is send over tourists in the winter). What has that brought us? Or the Cuban people? Show me one geostrategic/geopolitical advantage gained by engaging Cuba. And show me a tangible benefit that the Cuban people have gained aside from a few tourist dollars.
In reality our inability to demand better human rights for the Cuban people has largely resulted in us implicitly supporting their abuse. We send over tourist dollars which essentially help keep the regime alive to perpetrate even more abuses. Yet we don't even undertake the most basic of restrictions (sanctions on the regime for example). I would hardly call that some great success.
If you think torture is wrong in Guantanamo then surely the same principle applies to the rest of the island as well. I cannot condemn the Bush administration's actions and then applaud another who follows the same path. And one would hope that Kennedy being the visionary that he was, would have thought the same way....
So we have 'engaged' Cuba (and even that's a sketchy term...all we do is send over tourists in the winter). What has that brought us? Or the Cuban people? Show me one geostrategic/geopolitical advantage gained by engaging Cuba. And show me a tangible benefit that the Cuban people have gained aside from a few tourist dollars.
In reality our inability to demand better human rights for the Cuban people has largely resulted in us implicitly supporting their abuse. We send over tourist dollars which essentially help keep the regime alive to perpetrate even more abuses. Yet we don't even undertake the most basic of restrictions (sanctions on the regime for example). I would hardly call that some great success.
If you think torture is wrong in Guantanamo then surely the same principle applies to the rest of the island as well. I cannot condemn the Bush administration's actions and then applaud another who follows the same path. And one would hope that Kennedy being the visionary that he was, would have thought the same way....
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jade_lee
Active Member
Canada-Cuba relations
By John M. Kirk, Peter McKenna
Borrow this book
Find in a library
"In the "neighborhood" of the Americas, Canada alone has maintained consistently cordial relations with Cuba, in spite of considerable pressure from the United States. In the first book-length study of the subject, John M. Kirk and Peter McKenna explore this unusual dynamic, focusing mainly on the period since 1959. They begin with the evolution of the Canadian-Cuban relationship, which was initially founded on pragmatic economic and commercial considerations. Cuba has always been one of Canada's major trading partners in Latin America, and it is the second most popular vacation resort for Canadians. Subsequent chapters, ordered historically, explore each Canadian prime minister's response to the revolutionary government in Havana. Changing personalities and ideologies in that office have had a significant impact on Canada's Cuba policy. The author also look at the relationship from the Cuban point of view: they have drawn on privileged interview and archival material from Cuba, including never-before-seen diplomatic records from Cuba's Foreign Ministry, to create a thoroughly rounded portrait. In what is perhaps a controversial stance, the authors seek to use Canada's Cuba policy as a lesson in good neighborliness for the United States, and they dedicate their book to "all those who struggle for the introduction of common sense, dignity, and justice into U.S.-Cuban relations"
The holier than thou wears thin after awhile.
By John M. Kirk, Peter McKenna
Borrow this book
Find in a library
"In the "neighborhood" of the Americas, Canada alone has maintained consistently cordial relations with Cuba, in spite of considerable pressure from the United States. In the first book-length study of the subject, John M. Kirk and Peter McKenna explore this unusual dynamic, focusing mainly on the period since 1959. They begin with the evolution of the Canadian-Cuban relationship, which was initially founded on pragmatic economic and commercial considerations. Cuba has always been one of Canada's major trading partners in Latin America, and it is the second most popular vacation resort for Canadians. Subsequent chapters, ordered historically, explore each Canadian prime minister's response to the revolutionary government in Havana. Changing personalities and ideologies in that office have had a significant impact on Canada's Cuba policy. The author also look at the relationship from the Cuban point of view: they have drawn on privileged interview and archival material from Cuba, including never-before-seen diplomatic records from Cuba's Foreign Ministry, to create a thoroughly rounded portrait. In what is perhaps a controversial stance, the authors seek to use Canada's Cuba policy as a lesson in good neighborliness for the United States, and they dedicate their book to "all those who struggle for the introduction of common sense, dignity, and justice into U.S.-Cuban relations"
The holier than thou wears thin after awhile.
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jade_lee
Active Member
nope it ain'tI thought it was about not trusting articles written by biased writers ...
jade_lee
Active Member
Note also that the title of the thread bears little relation to the original article. How does what Castro thinks Kennedy would have done relate to Canada? Are we to accept that the only correct policy path is the prescription of what autocrats speculate past US presidents would do?
The title of the thread alludes to Canadian policy being the correct one to adopt under the circumstances. And Castro questions the path taken by America verses the path that might have been.
kEiThZ
Superstar
^ Fine. Forget the American policy vis-a-vis Cuba (one would hope we don't determine all our successes and failures simply by their relative merit against US actions and policies). Answer the questions I posted with regards to our policy on relations with Cuba:
1) What geo-strategic/geo-political gains has Canada accrued by maintaining relations with not just the country but the Castro regime as well?
2) What positive impacts has our relationship with Cuba had on improving human rights and freedoms for the Cuban people?
1) What geo-strategic/geo-political gains has Canada accrued by maintaining relations with not just the country but the Castro regime as well?
2) What positive impacts has our relationship with Cuba had on improving human rights and freedoms for the Cuban people?
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